When to test the limits of workplace transparency—and when you keep your mouth shut.
“Transparency” sounds like a good thing…but is it always? When should you share personal info with your boss? What if you know a layoff is coming? This week, Jen and Sara look at tough situations about disclosing information—and help two listeners with very different scenarios decide whether spilling the tea is the right thing to do, or if it’ll cause more harm than good.
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Jen Dionisio 0:00 Use your guilt for good, and don't let it keep you from being the caring colleague that you have been, that you are right now, and that you will be in the future.
Jen Dionisio 0:27 Sara, you'll be very proud of me. I have had an entire bottle of water today, and it's three o'clock.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:34 How's that body feeling?
Jen Dionisio 0:35 You know, I don't have a headache like yesterday.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:40 You're on your way to being a WaterTok influencer.
Jen Dionisio 0:43 So I was looking up those WaterTok posts that you shared with me yesterday, and I am kind of delighted and kind of horrified.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:54 Oh my gosh, if anybody here has not looked up WaterTok, that is the arm of TikTok where people are creating water concoctions full of those sugar free packets and syrups that are like "unicorn water," and it's like 17 pumps of this and four pumps of that and then three different colored packets of things. I don't know what's in there. I don't know if it still qualifies as water. But I am fascinated by these videos.
Jen Dionisio 1:18 Friends we will link to some in the show notes so you too get to enjoy the WaterToks.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 1:24 Gotta stay hydrated. Gotta stay hydrated, especially when you're answering some weird questions about work. Are you ready to get into it, Jen?
Jen Dionisio 1:31 Yeah, let's do it.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 1:33 Hey, everybody. This is Per My Last Email, the show about what to do when work gets weird. I'm Sara Wachter-Boettcher.
Jen Dionisio 1:40 And I'm Jen Dionisio. Sara, what is the weird we're talking about today?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 1:45 Okay, so today we're talking about something I think a lot of people have experienced: struggling to the side whether or not to disclose information at work, like telling your colleagues or your boss something. So when do you do it? And when don't you?
Jen Dionisio 2:00 Oh, I love that. That's such a juicy one.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 2:03 Have you ever had a situation like that?
Jen Dionisio 2:05 I mean, I really felt that way while I was transitioning to working here at Active Voice. For me, coaching was something that when I started doing it, I thought was going to be something I did on the side or volunteer work. But as it became more and more something I was pursuing as a career, it was a couple of years where I was like, "How much do I share about this arc when I know in the back of my head like this is my last content strategy job, at least for probably a good chunk of time. It really made me a little bit uncomfortable with like promotions and raises and getting projects, like I felt a little like I was taking up some space that maybe somebody more passionate deserved. And that was really uncomfortable.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 2:53 Yeah. Well, how did you work through that when you needed to start telling people about your plans? Like how did you decide who to tell, when to tell? Who not to tell?
Jen Dionisio 3:04 I started very personal and one-on-one. You know, I was really close to my boss, and so he was the first person I told, and you know, I think something that was hardest for me as I felt like I was sort of dropping some pretty clear hints. And he felt like he was blindsided, which was a real kind of disconnection for me.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 3:25 Yeah.
Jen Dionisio 3:25 It was tricky, right? Because we were going through so much that year with like layoffs and restructurings and just you know, the world on fire, and I didn't want to add more stress to his plate. And, you know, also I had enough stress on my plate. I also kind of didn't want to deal with that at the time.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 3:43 Yeah. Well, and I also think like, what do you really owe people in these environments and in these situations? Which I think is something that we should get into today, it's like, "What am I really responsible for here? What's up to me to decide?" I know that a lot of us, and I think you're one of these people, don't necessarily want to make it like difficult for others. But at the same time, like you don't owe that company the rest of your life or plans about what you're going to do six months from now. And in fact, I think sometimes when people tell their company that kind of information too early, it works against them. I mean, I've seen people actually lose their jobs sooner because they had intimated that they might be interested in leaving at some point and like, you know, you do have to watch out for yourself, too.
Jen Dionisio 4:26 Yeah. I mean, what about you? Did you ever kind of find yourself deciding to disclose too early or feel like you did it later than you would have in hindsight?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 4:36 You know, I haven't had to tell colleagues something like that in a long time, since I had like a traditional job. But when I was about to leave my last job, I had built up this like whole strategy around it. I was thinking about like all the timing and kind of how to really position it because I wanted to stay on contracting part-time while I got my sea legs for myself as a consultant or a freelancer. And I was really scared, because I'd seen them actually sever ties with people who left the organization and sometimes get very sort of like cut and dried about it. And so one, I waited until there was somebody else who was at my level, a fellow director who led the team that was kind of like parallel to mine.
Jen Dionisio 5:25 Yeah.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 5:25 Until I knew he was also leaving. And I was like, "Well, they're going to really need me. So it'll be harder for them to say no to this." But then the other thing I did is I felt like I couldn't just go in there and tell them, "Hey, this is the deal. I want to leave. And this is what I'm doing." I felt like I needed a reason that would allow me to stay in their good graces. And so what I did is I went in, and instead of telling them I wanted to work for myself, what I told them was that I had just gotten a book contract and I needed time to write.
Jen Dionisio 5:54 Was that true?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 5:56 It was truthy. I was in talks at the time with Rosenfeld Media, about the book that would become "Content Everywhere". But I remember that Lou Rosenfeld had just given me a whole lot of feedback on my proposal, and I was not at all certain that it would actually turn into anything. It was, "This is interesting, but..." and then here's a whole ton of feedback you have to do something with. And so I stretched that a little bit and went in and was like, "This thing is happening." And I feel fine about it. Like, I think that's a pretty unproblematic lie. Right? Like, nobody's really hurt that process. But I also felt like, it shouldn't be that hard to tell people the truth, right?
Jen Dionisio 6:41 Yeah. You know, I think a lot of times, it's like, what did we experience that told us like, this was gonna be okay or not? My boss was lovely about it. I mean, he was like, "I'm gonna hate you for one day, and then I'm gonna be so excited for you." But I think of my job before that where I really got a strong guilt trip and like, not what felt like a warm send off for leaving. And it really made me very scared to do that again.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 7:11 Yeah. Well, I think that's probably good framing for these questions today because behind these questions about "Should I disclose? What should I say?" There's a lot around trust and what's safe and what you might be actually like retaliated against for. And I think that we really need to get into some of that in order to come out the other side with some answers. So, you ready to get into it?
Jen Dionisio 7:35 Yes, let's hear our first question.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 7:41 So this one comes from a director of consulting.
SK 7:45 As a manager, I’m hearing about layoffs—including specific people—WEEKS or even MONTHS before the layoffs come to fruition. How do you not treat the layoff-ees differently, or give them a heads up that you know what's in store...? How do you manage the guilt of knowing something that will affect their lives when you can't tell them? Do you stay loyal to the organization and not tell, or do you give the person who is losing their job a heads up?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 8:08 Jen, I hate this scenario.
Jen Dionisio 8:10 I know.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 8:11 I hate it so much. As a human and as someone who generally cares more about workers than about toeing the company line, my immediate reaction is "I want to tell them," but that also seems really dicey.
Jen Dionisio 8:25 Yeah, I've been in this situation before. It is agonizing to have to keep that to yourself and to debate if you want to leak. I mean, especially if that person is someone you really like, or you really care about.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 8:42 Yeah, well, Jen, I'm glad that you are the lead answerer today because you've been in this situation, and you know, that pain. So let's call this person SK for "Secret Keeper".
Jen Dionisio 8:55 Love.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 8:56 What should they do?
Jen Dionisio 8:57 Well, unsurprisingly, this is probably a lot more complex than a yes or no answer. And I do want to say I need to really do my best to put aside what my gut reaction was to hearing this, which is, "Oh my God, you cannot tell." I am a rule follower. That tends to be my default. So I'm glad that we're going to explore this from a few different angles.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 9:24 I'm not a rule follower, but I hear you. So Jen, tell me though, what is behind that strong reaction, that "Oh, my God, you can't tell"?
Jen Dionisio 9:32 Honestly, I think it's fear for SK. You know, my brain immediately went to a scenario where she chooses to disclose, the person says that they will keep it in confidence, maybe they really mean to, but somehow it accidentally spills out. Then SK gets blowback and maybe even real punishment for sharing when she wasn't supposed to. Maybe then some kind of legal issue arises from this chain of events. Sara, I'm on the whole catastrophe wagon right now.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 10:05 Yeah, well, and you know, to be honest, some of those things could happen.
Jen Dionisio 10:08 Yeah.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 10:09 I mean, if you told me that I was going to get laid off at some point, but you don't know when it's happening. I don't think I would do a good job of keeping that to myself. And also, why should I, right? Like, if I get that news, I might be thinking, "I gotta go take care of me," or like, "I'm really mad, and I'm gonna go storm into someone's office."
Jen Dionisio 10:26 Yeah.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 10:27 And so word might get around. And I can absolutely see that leading to the person who disclosed, ending up on the chopping block. I mean, that's the kind of thing people can end up dismissed over. And I think it's worthwhile for SK here to really think about the risks that they might face if they broke confidentiality, and also make sure that if they choose to do that, that it doesn't violate the terms of their own employment. Or if it does, that they're willing to violate the terms of their own employment in order to disclose this information.
Jen Dionisio 10:54 Right.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 10:55 Okay. So knowing that as you start looking at this, one of your first reactions is fear and then catastrophizing, I'm curious, how would you maybe help SK look, honestly, at some of the risks that they might face, but without going to that catastrophe zone?
Jen Dionisio 11:13 I think I would start with SK's motivations here, particularly like, what is driving this question. And I would look at that from two lenses: which of those motivations are on behalf of the person or people being laid off, and which ones are a little bit more about SK herself? I don't actually know the full context of SK's relationships with these folks, but since she said she's a manager and going to assume that one or more may actually be direct reports of hers. So thinking about it from that angle, what are some of the arguments that would be in favor of giving a heads up? You know, maybe it's that you want the person to have time to do job searching, if they aren't already, so that they have income lined up before they're let go. Or, you know, wanting to protect a person and give them warning in case they're planning any big expenses, you know, like vacations or buying a house or something like that.
Those motivations are probably going to be really unique to each person, both based on what you know about them and their circumstances, but also like their personalities and temperaments. Like, who are the people that are most likely to kind of storm into the boss's office proverbial office, I guess, and immediately blow SK's cover? So SK, all of those influences absolutely make sense. And before you kind of try to make sense of them, get down all of your thoughts on the case for disclosing to this person based on them specifically, especially if it's somebody that is really important to you.
But I also want you to spend a bit of time on your personal motivations because I think it's really easy to frame this kind of dilemma as like being about the feelings of the person or people being laid off, when actually it may be a little bit more about your own feelings of shame, or guilt, or being bad. What is the story that you're telling yourself about who you are if you share now? Do you feel like it makes you a good person, it makes you a loyal colleague, it makes you a caring manager, it means you're not a tool of the man? Like what are those arguments that are saying "I should do this"?
And also like what are the stories that you're telling yourself about who you are, if you don't divulge? Maybe you're afraid that you're being a bad manager or bad colleague or a bad friend, or you're afraid of being criticized when the people do learn about the layoffs and blame you for not sharing that with them earlier. There's a lot that could come up that may not necessarily be true.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 14:10 Yeah. Tell me more about that. Tell me what might not be true here.
Jen Dionisio 14:14 I suspect that most people in a workplace know that managers are not allowed to share this kind of information ahead of time. I feel like that applies not only to layoffs, it applies to things like promotions, raises, like there is a lot of information that managers have in their heads and they are not allowed to share. And that's an expectation of the job. And that's a real risk for you that I don't think some of your direct reports or colleagues if they care about you would feel like you must do on their behalf.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 14:58 It sounds like there's a little bit of an assumption on SK's side that like, things will be better for this person if they're told earlier. And that might be true, totally might be true. But I also think we don't totally know that. Like, what happens if then they have to hold on to this information for weeks or months that they theoretically don't know, and they're just waiting for the other shoe to drop? Or what happens if something changes and the organization changes its mind and that layoff is canceled, or somebody else quits, and they don't have to lay that person off? We just don't really know enough because this is not SK's decision. So if something changes, SK may not even be privy to that information.
And I really want to underline that part because I think that that can really put SK in a risky position if they disclose and then things change. Is it actually a better experience for this person being laid off if they get to know a couple of weeks in advance, it leads to a rumor, things get twisted, everyone in the org starts freaking out, then people start coming up to them and are upset with them for spreading this information? I mean, like, there are just so many places this could go that also sound really unpleasant. And I really look at it as saying like, "This is a shitty situation, kind of no matter what way you slice it." And it feels to me like SK might be taking on a lot of responsibility to solve something that actually isn't in their power.
Jen Dionisio 16:23 I agree with you, like so many of those examples you shared of things that could change the experience, like suddenly the person isn't being laid off, like I've seen all of those things happen before. And thinking of the person on the other end, like what is their experience now at the company if something shifts, and they're not being laid off, but they know that they were number one on the chopping block? Like, as much of a load as this is for SK to carry, the reason I'm very curious about those motivations is, you know, it's almost like when people talk about like cheating on their partners, like, are you telling your partner because you want to feel better? Or because you want them to know? And I think sometimes with really uncomfortable situations like this, that can be a thing that pops up.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 17:17 Yeah, where it's like, "Okay, do you want to disclose this information just so that you don't have to carry it, but then you've put it on to somebody else to carry?" And I think that's an important thing to consider. The other thing this really made me think about is like, I'm sorry, why is SK getting information about layoffs months in advance? Like I do understand, if SK is a manager, that it makes sense that they're going to need some lead time to prepare for a layoff.
And I think surprising a manager by laying off people on their team really sucks. But the time that SK means is time to think about how they're going to make a communications plan for their team, that is the team that's remaining, how they're going to shift work around, if people on their team are getting laid off, where are project is gonna go, what's going to not get done, etcetera. That is like I don't know, a week, maybe two weeks, I guess, kind of depending on the situation? In my opinion, that, to me sounds like a really big burden to tell SK months in advance that somebody on their team is going to be laid off.
Jen Dionisio 18:22 Yeah.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 18:22 And then just expecting SK to sit with that? Yeah, like I look at that, and I think you know, SK your employer is not handling this very well. If they're planning layoffs this far in advance and then expecting you to hold that info, I think that they're putting way too much of a burden on you. And I can see why you might want to get rid of that burden. But I really want you to think about whether getting rid of that burden is actually serving the person that you're sharing the information with.
Jen Dionisio 18:52 And I'd curious, too, for any of our listeners who have been laid off recently, like, would you want to know, would that have changed anything for you? Would that have added to your stress? Would it have kept it just the same? I suspect too that there are very few people listening right now who've been laid off and were given a heads up unofficially. And I think that speaks too to the fact that even though it may feel awful to be holding this, it is not you being bad or wrong or doing anything that you shouldn't do.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 19:30 And I think my gut reaction is like, I think that "Oh yeah, I would want somebody to tell me that I was going to be laid off." Because in my head, I imagine that what I would do with that information is like calmly and thoughtfully start preparing my resume and getting my act together and making my portfolio or whatever, right? Is it? Is that really what I would do? No, probably what I would actually do if I got that information in advance is wallow in a huge amount of shame and fear and anxiety, and probably not do anything to really prepare. And so I sometimes think like, oh, we think we're giving people more time to prepare, but are we actually giving them more time to just like, look around at their colleagues and wonder, "Well, why was it me and not them? Or like, what am I doing wrong?" And like, is that actually useful?
Jen Dionisio 20:19 Yeah, yeah. Agreed. And I think that kind of goes to the question SK asked about, like, how to manage their own guilt, because I suspect that SK is actually not planning to disclose this but is really more so struggling with how to get through what sounds like it could be weeks or months of having the secret to keep.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 20:44 Yeah, so how do they do that? Because it does, it feels bad to hold on to information.
Jen Dionisio 20:50 SK, I think that there are perfectly reasonable, logical, and empathetic reasons to have your why very clear on why you aren't disclosing if that's your choice. But that doesn't mean that you are helpless in this situation. Because, okay, you are going to carry guilt. And that is inevitable. But what would it look like to actually make that guilt generative? What if you set an intention to make sure that you are behind the scenes giving that person opportunities that might give them a leg up in their job search, you know, whether that's something that they can add to their portfolio, or it's a skill that's maybe a little bit of a gap of theirs or could use a little bit more exposure?
That's stuff you can do behind the scenes until they know. And afterwards, like what can you do to support that person on their way out and after they're gone? You know, that can be everything from giving them referrals, making introductions, doing resume reviews, mentoring, supporting them through the inevitable kind of feelings that are going to come up when this news breaks. There are a lot of things that you can do for this person, even if saving their jobs isn't in your control.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 22:12 I'm glad you mentioned what this person might be able to do after the news is public because it made me think of a few episodes back, I think it was episode eight, when there was somebody who was laid off and they were really hurt by the silence from their manager. That was the most painful thing was the way that their manager just like, didn't check in with them and broke off what they thought was a friendship after that layoff happened. And SK I think that's something I would really think about is what does it look like for you to continue to really value this human as they go through a hard time? And what if some of the things that you have the most control over because you don't have control over the layoff and you don't even have control over when the layoff is happening. But you do have control over how you treat this person while they're still on your team and how you treat them down the line. And what if you put a lot of your energy into that and I'm wondering if that might lighten the load a little bit for you?
Jen Dionisio 23:04 Yeah, SK I just really want to echo that. Like use your guilt for good and don't let it keep you from being the caring colleague that you have been that you are right now and that you will be in the future. So take care of yourself. You are doing enough.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 23:21 Thanks for writing in SK.
Emily Duncan 23:23 Hi! It’s Emily—PMLE’s producer. Listening to Jen and Sara unpack listener dilemmas might have you thinking: “I wish I had coaching skills to help my people this way too.” If that’s true—I have good news! Jen and Sara are hosting one of their favorite workshops on November 15. It’s called Coaching Skills for Design and Tech Leaders. In this workshop, you’ll get to learn some of the powerful coaching techniques you’ve heard Jen and Sara use on this show: Asking powerful questions. Reframing challenges. Getting yourself and your teams unstuck. If you want practice putting these skills into use—join us on November 15! For more info, go to https://www.activevoicehq.com/events/coaching-skills-for-design-tech-leaders-nov2023 and click on the events page.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 24:05 Okay, Jen, are you ready for another dilemma?
Jen Dionisio 24:08 I am.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 24:09 Okay, so this one is a really different flavor of disclosure. It's not so much about disclosing something happening to someone else but disclosing something that is happening to you. So it comes from a design manager who works in Health Tech.
FT 24:24 I’m pregnant (yay!) but finding it hard to keep up with work. Before getting pregnant I was so worried about the time off from my leave that I hadn’t considered how hard it would be to work during my first trimester when nausea, lack of appetite and extreme fatigue are making it hard to get much done and no one knows what’s going on. I’ll be in my tenth week next week—which is apparently a very bad week. I have to decide if I take a work trip or skip it, but I’m nervous about being at a retreat with a group who doesn’t know I’m pregnant and while I’m not feeling well. How do I manage taking care of myself during this time while making sure my performance doesn’t slip? When do I tell my manager or my team—and how do I know the news won’t change plans they have for me?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 25:02 Okay, so Jen, let's call this listener FT for "First Trimester."
Jen Dionisio 25:06 Congratulations FT.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 25:07 Yes. Okay, before we jump in, I do want to caveat that Jen and I are not experts in the legal side of this. And we don't even know where this person is based. And in the US there is a federal law about pregnancy discrimination. But there are also additional laws that vary from state to state. And so there may be legal aspects of this in terms of what FT is entitled to, that we can't necessarily speak to. But I actually don't think this question is particularly about legal concerns, I think it has a lot more to do with the sort of like interpersonal dynamics of work. So let's start with FT's first question: how do I manage taking care of myself during this time, while making sure my performance doesn't slip?
Jen Dionisio 25:49 That seems like the perfect place to start because FT, taking care of yourself is actually your number one job. And so check in with yourself like, how is that going right now, while you're dealing with like the nausea and fatigue and any other symptoms? Are there tweaks that you might need to make to your work day, or boundaries that you may want to set that would kind of support you through this period when you're just not feeling your best or 100%? I really want you to start there thinking about yourself before you worry about what this means for your performance at work. Look that you even asked us this question suggests to me that like you're trying to do right by your org. But the thing is, we all have moments when we are not at 100%. Like that's everyone, not just pregnant people.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 26:45 I'm not 100% right now.
Jen Dionisio 26:47 I am 100%, only because I had that bottle of water. But things come up in our lives that impact our energy and impact our focus. And those can be health related, whether it's like getting sick temporarily or having some kind of chronic illness. It can be related to personal things like if you have a really challenging situation unfolding outside of work, or like you're juggling caretaking duties for kids or parents. I mean, there's an endless list of things that keep us from giving our work our best selves. And I think that we often forget that like, work doesn't need to be our top priority all the time. If ever.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 27:35 Yeah, you know, that's one of the things that really struck me in the way that FT framed their question. You know, she wrote, "How do I take care of myself while making sure my performance doesn't slip?" And I think that's what I want to offer here is this idea of like, what if it's oka, if your performance slips? It's so easy to fall into this thinking that we do owe our companies 100% of our energy and intelligence all the time. But I don't think that's actually the employment contract.
Jen Dionisio 28:00 Nope.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 28:01 I think you're responsible for doing the things that they hired you to do. But that's just gonna look different in different moments. And sometimes progress is going to be fast, and sometimes it's going to be slow. Sometimes we're going to be really unfair, and sometimes we just aren't. And that's just true for all of us, pregnant or not. And so, if work is really this long series of peaks and valleys, then what I'd really encourage FT to consider is what if we stopped seeing that as a problem? Like, what if that just becomes part of the ebb and flow of life versus a problem that has to be solved?
Jen Dionisio 28:33 I love that metaphor of the kind of peaks and valleys in the ebbs and flows, because it is so much more accurate about how we show up everywhere, FT, by getting really clear on what you need without starting with what your employer needs, then you can ask yourself the question of how you get those needs met? And that might inform whether or not you choose to disclose because if you don't have to in order to get the kind of support you need, then that's a very different answer than if you need some kind of accommodation that requires sharing this level of detail.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 29:14 Yeah, you know, I think about little things that that FT might be able to do, like block their calendar for a daily nap or shift meetings to the afternoon if mornings or extra nauseous. And I'm not sure if FT has already tried some of those things. But what I do know is that often when people are worried about "slipping" or sticking out in some way, they're really worried about perceptions of them. And that can lead people to kind of try to grip through and really pretend that everything is fine and normal, and can actually prevent them from making changes that are actually not that big of a deal and everybody would be fine with and not ask any questions about.
Jen Dionisio 29:52 Right, yeah, because I think about it from the angle of FT's colleagues like if somebody on your team asked you you to move your regular stand up to the afternoon like, would your brain go to oh my god, that person is awful? How dare they also, would your brain immediately go to, "Bet that person's pregnant"? So often, when we are really hyper focused on something happening to us or within us, we forget that while it's so obvious in our heads, it's not actually very obvious to anyone else.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 30:29 You know, the other thing I want to offer here is this: FT, you are allowed to make requests or set boundaries without explaining why. No one's entitled to that information before you're ready to share it. Unless you are at the point where what you need is an official leave, or you need some type of official accommodation, this just doesn't really sound like an HR issue. Doesn't sound like what you need to do is document the situation and get it approved, necessarily. It sounds like just more the everyday stuff people go through.
And so what would it look like to disclose to people something maybe a lot less specific, like, "Hey, I've been having some health stuff come up recently. And it's kind of taking its toll on me." And what if you just made a request, like, "Hey, can we cancel some of these meetings, or I'm gonna be a little bit more camera off for a while. It's just been a little bit rough lately," and left it at that, because they do not actually need to know more right now?
Jen Dionisio 31:26 I think if there's anything COVID has introduced into kind of workplace culture, it is this sort of expectation that there's going to be a little more fluidity and how people are, are showing up, whether it's on camera or not, you know, whether they are tired or not. And I think people are kind of primed, more so than they used to be to get these kinds of requests for really any reason.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 31:51 Yeah. Now, I do want to get to this other part of the question, though, which is like, "when do I tell my manager or my team? And how do I know the news won't change plans that they have for me?"
Jen Dionisio 32:02 Yeah, that one hurt my heart a little bit, especially knowing that FT sounds worried whether it's based on something that she's witnessed at the company or not, that her opportunities might be limited, if she discloses now. And I wish I could say don't sweat it, but we live in reality. And there are so many biases against pregnant people that can creep in whether your colleagues are aware that they're doing it or not.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 32:34 I mean, I know people who've experienced sort of being shunted over to the mommy track at work, you know, where they're like, not perceived of as valuable as they were before they had kids. They are not promoted. Maybe they're not considered as being as hard of a worker or like, you know, their priorities aren't here. And that stuff happens. And I will tell you, it is absolutely trash. But it is real. And I think that we'd be doing a disservice if we pretended it wasn't real.
Jen Dionisio 32:58 Yeah, I mean, I just had a friend tell me that she moved into a new role within her company, so sort of a shift left and then got pregnant, and her managers directly told her that they would not have allowed her to make that transition if they knew she was going to get pregnant so soon.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 33:17 Wow, saying it right out loud, huh?
Jen Dionisio 33:18 Oh, no worrying about any legal consequences. Not bothering at all to hide that bias.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 33:26 Yikes. I don't hear it. I don't want to overly scare FT. Like, I don't want to get on this track of assuming that this is going to happen to her. But I do want her to know that these things happen, which I mean, I'm sure she already knows. And here's the thing that might be the hardest about it. FT, you can't control it. If the people who you work with are biased against moms or against parents or against pregnant people, then they are going to be biased against those groups.
And what I noticed here, Jen is that it almost sounds like FT's, trying to find some way to control for that, to ensure that other people's reactions and biases don't get in her way. Like if she is somehow just perfect, and how she delivers the news and when she does it, she picks the right time, she makes sure her performance is perfect. If she's just perfect at every single step, then she's going to be safe. There's a kind of a painful truth in there, that there is no such thing as being perfect enough to evade other people's biases. Trust me, a lot of people have tried, right?
Like I mean, we all have heard the kind of like, "Oh, you got to be twice as good" sorts of feedback that will be given to for example, people of color. And people have internalized that. And guess what, even being the best doesn't protect you enough from other people's biases. And that is a hard pill to swallow because, again, it's not in your control and that can feel really bad. But it can also be really freeing. It can take a lot of load off because it is very energy intensive to have to worry and fret all the time and stay vigilant all the time about how other people are perceiving us. It is a huge second job, all of this kind of like masking and all of this kind of like performance that is designed so that people see you in the right way and never have these bias thoughts about you.
I mean, like, what a huge job that isn't going to work because again, you don't control other people's biases. And what a huge job to take on during what is already a stressful time where FT's, already really kind of struggling with just the physical effects of the pregnancy. So something I might offer to you FT is just what would be different if you accepted that what other people think about you because you're pregnant, isn't yours to control?
Jen Dionisio 35:50 God, yes, I can, just on behalf of FT feel some of the weight coming off of our shoulders. Because you know, I was catastrophizing earlier on behalf of our first listener, and to be doing that consistently, to react to something that you are predicting might happen but you have no awareness of if it really will, or how it will play out, you're not actually setting yourself up to deal with those issues when they come up. But you are really adding a lot of stress to yourself in the current moment.
And if you really do feel like you need to kind of suss out how your workplace might treat you or what the experience is going to be like, as a pregnant person or a new parent, maybe what you could do is seek out someone that you know, and trust and like within the company who has been there. That doesn't mean that their experience is going to be exactly the same as yours. But it might give you some clues as to whether this worrying is something that is worth your time when there are so many more important things to spend time with.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 37:09 I mean, and I really think that it's worthwhile to assess the risks in your environment, and to look around and see if there's evidence that this is a place where it is unsafe to disclose information about your pregnancy. But that's different than trying to be vigilant to people's perceptions of you and trying to be perfect and make sure you do this in a perfect way. That's putting all that strain back on you and kind of making it your problem to somehow avoid or evade other people's biases, as opposed to like, letting that be an external thing like, "Okay, I see this, these pieces of evidence out there that tells me that this organization might not be the most supportive to parents, or I've seen other people kind of experience these things. That's information and I want to protect myself." But not turning that into sort of like, extra work I have to do to be perfect all the time. Because I think that that's just simply too heavy of a load.
Jen Dionisio 38:08 Yeah. And if FT could let go of some of this, there are other possibly much more enjoyable things to be doing with that energy right now. You know, it sounds like FT is very ambitious, very eager to grow and learn. And so what do you want your leadership to put in motion for you either now or once you return from leave? Do you have a clearer sense of what those goals and aspirations are? If you figure those out, and you share them, and you hold your manager accountable to helping you achieve those things, that is something you can really do that will be powerful for you, and actually in your control. And if you're not having those conversations yet, get started as soon as possible. It doesn't matter whether you have disclosed or not. Because those are your goals, regardless of your pregnancy status.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 39:16 Kind of firming up with your manager, where you're going in the organization, what's important to you what you care about, so that they know what your plans are. And if moving up in the org or kind of enhancing your responsibilities is important, which it kind of sounds like it is based on what FT wrote in, then they know that and then when they find out you're also pregnant. You know, maybe they're a little less likely to make assumptions about you and because they know what it is that you actually want.
Jen Dionisio 39:41 Yeah, I think that happens a lot too where you know, one of those unconscious assumptions that really needs to be challenged is like, "Oh, I'll be a nice manager and give FT an easy year while she eases into parenthood." And if your manager doesn't know that, that's not what you want, then, you know, they might be inclined to do something that they think is for your benefit, but actually isn't.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 40:07 Yeah, I think this is really common for managers when they're trying to be decent people, and they're trying to be supportive, but they've forgotten the crucial step of actually making sure they know what you want to need.
Jen Dionisio 40:20 Yeah.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 40:20 And they're relying on an assumption. I think this happens quite often with parents, and particularly with new moms. And so I do think FT that that's something for you to think about is how do you want to advocate for yourself, whether or not you disclose. And fundamentally, I think that, you know, there's all sorts of like, typical practices people have about when they start sharing information. But this is your pregnancy. And I think you deserve to decide that you want to tell people anytime you want.
And that could be anywhere along a spectrum, I think it's only like very late in the pregnancy, that you would be required legally to tell your company just because that's what you would have to do in order to get leave. But other than that, I mean, I really think you deserve to decide when to tell on your own terms, and to not feel pressured to do it to protect your job or protected perception of you or whatever else. Okay, but there is one more piece of this though.
Jen Dionisio 41:11 The work trip.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 41:13 The work trip. Okay. How should FT decide whether to go or not?
Jen Dionisio 41:16 Yeah, you know, FT shared a bunch about their concerns about going but not why they might want to go? So I'm curious as to like, is there something you're excited about when it comes to this trip, you know, maybe there are people that you want to see, or like the project that's being worked on is really fun, and you've been kind of excited to get in the same room with people and work through it. That is something to consider. But I also am curious, especially going back to some of that perception stuff is, are you just telling yourself that you should go on this trip, like whether it's to get face time with the bosses or, you know, to be a team player, or to not look like you're slacking, especially if you're self conscious about your contributions lately?
What is in it for you to go knowing that you may not be feeling well during this trip? That could be indication that you should go, it could be an indication that you shouldn't go, but I think it's kind of about wagging the discomfort against the possible benefit?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 42:21 Yeah. I'm glad Jen that you mentioned discomfort here. Because I think if this is a question of like, "I don't feel well, do I need to go on this trip?" My answer, there is very easy. No. Right? Like, your health should come first. And if you're not in a place where you feel well enough to travel, then I think you should feel good about staying home. But when I read FT's question, because they were talking about it being this work, retreat, you know, I know those are oftentimes opportunities to really talk about the future to let your goals be known. And some of those things, we just encourage you to do those bonding things. It can be really valuable for a career.
So I can understand if FT does want to be there. When I read her question, it sounded to me like she is actually maybe more afraid of how she's going to be perceived, if she shows up on this trip and isn't looking her best if she, you know, needs to like, take a break and go back to her room during the day. Or like if she's a little bit pale, if she seems a little bit out of it, like if those are the fears. Because my thought is, if FT is mostly concerned about managing people's perceptions on this trip, it might be helpful to go back to what I said before about control and look at like, what would it look like to just be a little less invested in worrying about what everyone thinks about you imagine FT going on this trip, and just simply thinking, "Okay, I'm not going to explain myself, I'm just going to be there. I'm going to be my kind of tired, a little bit ill self, I'm going to take the breaks I need to take. And people might have thoughts about that somebody might have a judgment, somebody might wonder what's up with me. Somebody might even in their head, guess that I'm pregnant. Okay."
Meaning that you don't necessarily have to do anything about those perceptions. People are going to have perceptions. And you could just let them have them. Because the reality is, people get pregnant and have health conditions and just they're just human because humans are human. And so I can understand it might be hard to let other people see you in a way that feels less than perfect. But I think that that's a lot of work to put up that perfect facade. And so if you're thinking about skipping the retreat, just because you're afraid you won't be able to put up that perfect facade. I would really encourage you to focus a little bit less on worrying what everyone else is going to think. And more on what you need, FT.
Jen Dionisio 44:52 That is such excellent advice and advice. I hope everyone listening not just FT takes the heart more frequently. So FT, let us know if you go or not and how it goes. We'd really love to hear what you decide to do based on your needs, not your company's.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 45:16 Jen, secrets, huh?
Jen Dionisio 45:19 I'll be honest, Sara, keeping secrets at work, I think was one of the hardest parts of being in management. Because I wanted to share everything with everyone. I didn't want to have more information than everyone else. But I think what I learned over time was that as much as I value transparency, there were some secrets that I did just have to keep for the benefit of myself. The benefit of the org or the benefit of the person, whether they would ever understand that that's why I was doing it or not.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 45:57 Yeah, I think a lot about transparency in our organizations and how many of our organizations should be more transparent than they are. But 100% transparency is also not necessarily healthy for people. And I think it is wise to be thoughtful about how and when we disclose information, especially in workplaces that are not always ready for us to be 100% transparent.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 46:29
I think that's it for this week's episode. Per My Last Email is a production of Active Voice. Check us out at activevoicehq.com, and get all the past episodes, show notes, and full transcripts at https://pmleshow.com/. This episode was produced by Emily Duncan. Our theme music is “(I’m a) Modern Woman” by Maria T. Buy her album at https://thisismariat.bandcamp.com/.
Thank you to Secret Keeper and First Trimester who submitted their stories for today’s show—and thank YOU for listening. If you’ve got a work dilemma eating away at you, send it to us! Head to https://pmleshow.com/ to submit your story. See you next time.