This episode’s got it all: entitled clients, angry executives, and a whole lotta avoidant behavior.
Ever dealt with someone demanding that you find them a new job? Or have a friend and colleague go cold and ghost you the moment you get laid off? What about getting berated and then iced out by the head of your org?
Other people’s unkind, over-the-top, and just plain rude behavior can make you question everything—even yourself. So how do you find a path forward? That’s what Sara and Jen tackle in this week’s episode.
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Jen Dionisio 0:00 I keep thinking about that phrase "hurt people hurt people."
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:23 Ooh, Jen, I like that top. Is that new?
Jen Dionisio 0:25 It's not. I actually got it when I was on a business trip to Oslo.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:31 Oh, no wonder I like it then. I know y'all can't see her top, but it is a very summery, but somehow kind of still semi-professional blousy thing. Tres chic.
Jen Dionisio 0:43 Thank you. I don't get many opportunities to wear it now that I live at home in my sweat suit all the time.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:48 Oh, I hear you.
Jen Dionisio 0:50 I just realized that made me sound like quite a bougie snob. Most of my clothes are from my local stores.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:59 Hey, it's nice to get a fancy thing from a fancy trip.
Jen Dionisio 1:02 Agreed.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 1:03 Are you ready to do a podcast?
Jen Dionisio 1:04 Yeah, let's do it.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 1:06 Hey, everyone. This is Per My Last Email—the show about what to do when work gets weird. I'm Sara Wachter-Boettcher.
Jen Dionisio 1:13 And I'm Jen Dionisio. Sara, what are we talking about today?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 1:17 Okay, so Jen, this one is really interesting. It's about what to do when people are saying stuff to you that feels weird or rude or just off. And like, how do you respond to that?
Jen Dionisio 1:30 Whoo. I love that question. Because I feel like there are so many people out there right now who are just acting badly and more badly than they did pre-pandemic.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 1:46 Yes.
Jen Dionisio 1:46 It's like everyone is so intense right now with things that make them angry, or impatient, or frustrated, which I totally get. But it's really spilling out everywhere, including the office.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 2:01 Yeah, you know, I was just reading the other day, this article about how like people's anger and incivility toward each other has gone up since the pandemic. We'll put it in the show notes, but one of the things that was interesting about it was that it was really showing like some statistical change in this researcher's research that they've done about incivility. And I really see it reflected too, because I feel like there's so many people where they're living at the edge, right? Like they're stressed, and they're frustrated, and they're at the end of their rope already, from all of the different stressors. And so it's like, one little thing, and they kind of go over the edge. And then there you are on the receiving end of that. And that's what we're going to talk about today.
Jen Dionisio 2:44 Yeah. You know, and I think too, because of everything happening right now, and how we're all feeling, it's not just assholes being this way. Like, there are perfectly lovely, thoughtful people who are letting some of this spill out and project onto other people. And I think something that I've been really encouraging people to do is focusing on what's called Shadow Work in coaching, which is really kind of looking at the things about us, or the feelings we have, that are not good, you know? Like, they're not nice, or kind, or considerate. Instead, it's like kind of spending some time with the stuff we consider bad or weird or ugly, and finding ways to like process and accept and even appreciate them as important parts of us that need to be dealt with.
Because when we don't, those feelings tend to kind of sit inside of us, and we just project them onto other people instead of understanding that we have some work to do on our own. So I don't know, Sara, if we are seeing things like exaggerated judgments, strong reactions to criticisms, redirection when you try to have like a thoughtful piece of constructive criticism come out, sounds like that might be some shadowy behavior.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 4:11 Uh, well, Jen, I cannot wait to share these questions with you. Because trust me, there are some exaggerated judgments and strong reactions and a whole lot of other things coming up here. Are you ready to dig in?
Jen Dionisio 4:21 Yes, let's do it.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 4:27 Okay, so our first question comes from a UX content strategist that will call EC.
EC 4:33 I've been independent for more than 15 years now. This round of corporate consolidations is much weirder than the 2008 version. I'm dealing with two new and strange emotional responses from clients.
The first is: "Oh, of course *you* still get work from our former company. They get rid of me but they keep paying you." I mean, yeah, I'm significantly cheaper on a per-project basis than you are as an ongoing internal employee with salary and benefits. Plus you literally know the size of my contracts because you negotiated them, and you know that's nowhere near your salary.
The second is: "I'm going to go independent, too, so I'm relying on you to send work my way. I have bills to pay." In four separate cases, this has come across not as an inquiry but a demand, as if I have so much work that I should be obligated to give it away. I say that I don't have any extra work right now, which is true, but if something comes up that would be a good fit, I'll let them know. This has been met with outright anger, with two of them telling me outright that they think I'm hoarding all of the work when they're in difficult financial straits.
I honestly don't know what to think about this. I mean, I guess on one hand it's good that they think I'm *that* successful, but also it seems like everyone has lost their sense of tact? I know that the pandemic has broken all of us in a lot of different ways, but this is completely new to me. I don't feel like I have the emotional capacity to take on other people's anger right now.
I want to be empathetic and supportive! I've made it clear that I'm happy to make connections or offer referrals. I've even given away a lot of how-to-start-a-freelance-business info that I used to do as paid workshops. But I can't really handle the direct aggression.
How do I respond gracefully when someone is being aggressive about career stuff?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 6:20 So I'm calling this person EC, for "Emotional Capacity." They're out of theirs.
Jen Dionisio 6:26 Yeah.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 6:26 So Jen, where might you start with EC?
Jen Dionisio 6:29 I hear envy and entitlement and anger. EC, you are in the shadow zone. But before we dive into this, I just want to make something really clear: EC, you are not the cause of any of these feelings your clients are projecting on you. And that's one of the reasons why I really love talking about shadow work and people needing to come to terms with some of their, like, darker impulses or feelings. It doesn't mean that we can change other people and how they're acting, but kind of understanding why it might be happening for them helps us from like getting gaslit and taking out a lot of that shame on our own.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 7:19 Yeah, that makes so, so much sense. So what does that look like?
Jen Dionisio 7:23 So, you know, it's like, instead of saying, "I'm scared," which is something I imagine that the clients that are reaching out to you are feeling right now, like, they've lost their work, they've got financial pressures, I'm sure they're dealing with a lot of emotions and feelings about not being valuable, about never finding work again. But again, instead of saying that to you, like, "I'm really struggling, I don't know what to do, and I'm scared," those kinds of statements that would actually make us more inclined to support people who are going through hard times. Instead, people who don't investigate why they're acting why they are tend to kind of default to what the practice of nonviolent communication calls like the “Four Ds of Disconnection.” So there's diagnosis, which is like judgment and criticism, like, "I know what you're doing. I know what's going wrong here." Or like denial of responsibility, like, "It's your fault that they're keeping you on. It's your fault that I'm not getting work." The third D is demand, which I'm definitely hearing in here.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 8:35 Yeah.
Jen Dionisio 8:34 "You should give me your work," which, no you shouldn't. Spoiler alert. And the fourth D is deserve. "I feel like this is what I deserve. So I'm going to demand that of you whether or not it's fair, or whether or not you're the person that can actually meet this need for me."
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 8:36 Yeah, feeling these real strong.
Jen Dionisio 8:35 Real strong. And I really don't want to excuse this behavior. I'll be honest, I was really shocked at some of the things that EC's clients were saying to them. But I do want to give them some insight into what might be driving it because it is not that easy as being unsupportive or selfish.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 8:35 Yeah. So much of this sounds like it is not about EC at all. And it's more about "How do I protect myself from being vulnerable?" Right? Like, I don't have to say I'm scared if instead I can just be like, "You need to fix it for me."
Jen Dionisio 8:52 Yep.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 8:54 But EC does not need to fix it for them. So Jen, what might EC do to deal with these people?
Jen Dionisio 9:40 So I would start with a bit of a risk assessment. EC said that these are all former clients. And so a question I would like to pose, EC is, are these relationships that you need to maintain? Because if they aren't, you have a lot of choices, including to completely disengage. EC said, "I don't have the emotional capacity to take on other people's anger right now." Listen to that. Not responding to emails or texts or whatever things are hurtful to you is 100% okay. Sometimes you can't get through to the other person, and you have to just focus on protecting yourself and your own mental health. Now, again, former clients, so I'm suspecting there might be a little bit of a power dynamic to consider, and maybe EC actually wants to maintain these relationships in case they need work in the future.
If that's the case, it might be time to take some control over these conversations to see if you can coax some self-awareness out of the clients you're talking to. Especially because if you end up working with them again, these relationships are going to need to be repaired to move forward. So EC, I'd then encourage you to decide what you want because there's a big spectrum here. On one end, it's like, "I never want to talk to these people again, and I want to be left alone," like door shut, contact, cut, no more. On the other side, I hear in some of the things EC shared that they want to be a helper, they're happy to send resources and advice and other things to these people. They just don't want to put themselves in financial peril in order to be supportive.
So EC, think about where you fit in that spectrum and be really honest with yourself. This is a moment where you can kind of check in with your own shadow self to see what it has to say. I think we have a feeling like "Oh, I'm not a good person if I say I don't want to engage with these people anymore." But if you're doing that because they're hurting you, that doesn't make you a bad person, it doesn't make you an inconsiderate person. It just means that you are noticing a need of yours is being violated, and you're taking steps to take care of yourself. So any judgments that might be happening in your head around what you should or shouldn't do, try to set those aside and figure out what you really want to do. And also like what do you have to offer? You said that your emotional capacity is limited.
But also I suspect, maybe your time resources are limited as well. So don't be a martyr in this situation. Think about what you truly have capacity to give to these people who are coming to you for things and don't offer any more than what you have decided ahead of time is within a boundary you feel good about.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 12:55 I love that, Jen, because I know that in a perfect world EC might give them lots and might be like, "Oh, sure, let me handhold you through this process." Because in a perfect world, EC, would have all the time and energy to do it. But in the real world, there are other priorities and other people, and they may have some other people in their life whose relationship is really important to them or who need them in more important ways and like, we have to be able to to make decisions about our capacity. And that means that we can't give as much of ourselves to everything as we want to. Nobody can, right? Like, think about every cause in the world that you care about. You can't donate to all of them. And you also can't like do work on all of them. And that doesn't mean you're a bad person. It just means you're human. And sometimes I think we forget that when it comes to like helping people interpersonally. But we also have a capacity there, and I think it's important to think about where this fits in the fuller picture of your emotional and physical capacity.
Jen Dionisio 13:53 Yeah. And I get the sense that EC doesn't want to totally close the door because their question was about how to respond gracefully when these situations come up in the future. And so, Sara, I think I'm going to recommend that EC takes on some of the coaching practices that we use in their conversations with these clients.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 14:17 Okay, yes. Tell me about that.
Jen Dionisio 14:19 Okay, so let's revisit the scenarios that EC shared with us: The first one was "They get rid of me, but they keep paying you." So EC, something to ask yourself is, what has your reaction been when this has been said? Do you kind of shrug it off? Do you just nervously laugh? You know, do you change the subject?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 14:44 Do you defend yourself?
Jen Dionisio 14:45 Do you defend yourself? Yeah, think about what you have done and think about how it's turned out. Right? Because responding gracefully is going to take some work and composure on your end. But if you want to keep these relationships, I really think that it's possible to do so. So, when you shared your story with us, you mentioned a lot of facts when it comes to this scenario, like, "I'm cheaper than you." Unfortunately, people are not very good at responding to facts, but they are very good at reacting to feelings. So I suggest that EC starts with an observation and a curious question when something like this comes up in the future. Like, "I noticed this really seems to be bothering you. What's on your mind?"
That sort of open-ended question might help open up these clients so that they talk about what's really going on instead of this, like kind of knee-jerk reaction to what you are and aren't doing and where you're valuable and where you're not. And you can't always guarantee that that first open question is really going to get to the heart of the matter. So with everything that person shares, keep going, just keep asking "What else? Tell me more about that. What has this been like for you?" That's gonna really help you get to the heart of the matter of what's going on inside this person and what they feel like they need to get off their chest. And you may find in that open space, that you're able to start to really understand what's going on behind these, like, harsh words and find out what this person actually feels and needs.
And they might realize through talking to you that what they need is not something you can give them. It might be something that someone else can give them, or it might be something that they need to give themselves.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 16:46 Yeah.
Jen Dionisio 16:47 So, okay, Sara, let's do scenario two. What did the person say to EC? "You're hoarding all the work when I'm in difficult financial straits."
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 16:57 Yikes.
Jen Dionisio 16:58 What a guilt trip. Oh, my God, I would melt if somebody said that to me. I would agonize over that forever.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 17:05 So unfair. Yeah. So what do they do here?
Jen Dionisio 17:08 Yeah, so this one's a little tougher, because it is more accusatory than that first one. But I think EC can go back to that pattern of observation and curious questions: "I hear that you're really hoping for more leads." That's the observation. "And I hear that you're disappointed that I don't have any to share. What other ideas do you have for attracting new work?" Again, that's sort of starting to put the responsibility and ownership onto the person you're talking to. And also, it's more generative than them just kind of feeling resigned to the fact that nothing's going to work out for them, and they're never going to find work again.
So in both of these scenarios, like, in an ideal world, this may help your clients get a better understanding of themselves so that they stop projecting onto you. But we don't live in a perfect world, and so EC, you can only control yourself. So when these conversations come up, validate their feelings, let them feel heard, share your needs and requests, and accept that if they still blame you for their circumstances, you may need to cut your losses and move on. And maybe someday, they'll realize that they really were acting inappropriately with you and will come to you and apologize. And maybe they won't. But again, that's out of your control. Your top priority is to take care of yourself. Sara, what would you add if you were talking to EC?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 18:43 Yeah, I think I would just first reiterate, Jen, something you said earlier, but I want to make sure it doesn't get lost, which is like, you also don't have to do any of that work if you don't need these relationships. That's a bunch of labor, that's emotional labor, and if you want to cut your losses before you do all of that, I also understand that. The other thing I would say here is that if you do decide these are people you want to sustain relationships with, there's some damage that has been done. And it might be worthwhile to talk with them directly about that damage, about what your experience of the situation has been, and to set a boundary for the future. Because that would be the first step toward repairing that relationship if you want it to sustain.
And so you know, we've talked about this before on the show about having some of these difficult conversations. But the very quick recap is that it's really about communicating the situation, the behavior you observe from them, the impact it had on you, and then what you want to have happen going forward, a boundary you're setting or what you're requesting. For example, it could look something like this, like, "Hey, so-and-so. I'd like to talk with you about what you said the other day when you told me you're relying on me to send work your way because you have bills to pay. When you said that I felt a lot of pressure, and I didn't feel valued. And I want to be supportive and helpful to you, I hear you're going through a hard time. But in order for me to be there for you, I need you to show some curiosity about my experience first and not just tell me what to do. It's really important that you ask me, not make demands. And, you know, please ask me if I'm open to sharing leads with you, or if I'd consider you if I get a lead that's not a fit for me. That's gonna make me feel respected. And that's going to make it feel really good for me to be there for you."
I know, it might be hard to have that direct of a conversation, because you're basically saying, like, "Hey, what you said hurt me. And I need you to do things differently." You don't know how somebody's gonna react to that. Not everybody has practice in these conversations. But I'm going to say I think it's really healthy to learn to get better at them and to not carry around that sense of frustration, or anger or disappointment, or whatever it is that you might be carrying from the things that they said to you that hurt. And to let them know, "Hey, this is what I need. These are the boundaries that I have." And give them the opportunity to make amends and to change their behavior going forward.
Jen Dionisio 21:02 Yeah, great points. EC, however you decide to handle this situation, I just want you to remember, any support you give these folks is more than the amount that you are required to, which is zero. You definitely don't deserve their anger, and you're allowed to disengage if you need.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 21:23 You didn't take their jobs away, EC.
Jen Dionisio 21:26 You sure didn't.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 21:31 Okay, Jen, I think it's time for another question. Are you ready to go?
Jen Dionisio 21:34 Yeah, let's do it.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 21:36 Okay, let's play it.
CS 21:39 Ugh this is a little outside of the realm of my current work situation—but I was laid off in December and I have yet to hear from my manager, someone that after almost two years I considered a mentor and a good friend. The last interaction I had with him was a very short Zoom where he read an HR-prescribed layoff script, and that was it. My husband, who is in a totally different industry, says I should not expect anything nor be shocked. But to be fair, he's never been happy at work and just expects work to suck.
I really liked my job and was considered the “design mom,” if that's any indication of how much I looked out for and cared for my team. I helped hire and train more than 5 designers. Needless to say it's destroyed my trust and confidence, and it's taken me a while to be ok. Is this normal? Am I crazy for at least expecting a text from him saying that really sucked—I appreciate you or whatever. Why does capitalism suck so much?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 22:35 Okay, Jen, let's call this person "capitalism sucks," or CS for short.
Jen Dionisio 22:40 Yes, capitalism sucks.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 22:42 Okay, so the first up, CS. I think this happens relatively often, but like, Jen, I don't think this is normal. I think this is something people often do to cope with, you know, painful and confusing moments like a layoff or a firing. So it's common, but I don't think it's okay for humans to treat each other this way.
Jen Dionisio 23:02 You know, my first reaction to this one is like, "Oh, what a jerk." But it also kind of reminded me of some times where I've been in a position where being human after folks have been let go has really ended up backfiring on me. And I'll be honest, like, it's made me a little more cautious in how I communicate with people in order to protect myself. I share that to say, not that that's good, or fair or right, but there are a lot of reasons why CS's boss may have gone silent, and it may not be about them at all.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 23:43 Yeah, you know, I would bet money that it has very little to do with CS. I would bet that it has a lot to do with their ex-boss. And it might be something sort of like structural or like I don't know, maybe they've had a bad instance of keeping in touch with a past employee. And then, you know, there was some sort of like, legal or policy thing involved. But I think a lot of the time this is really about feelings. So your ex-boss might be having some feelings that they don't know what to do with. I don't know what those are, but they could be things like feeling guilt or shame that they couldn't save your job, or that they had to be the one to tell you, or that they kept their job.
It could be uncertainty, like "I don't know what to say. Nothing feels right. Everything I say, everything I think, feels wrong. I don't know how to show up for them." They might be afraid that you hate them now. They might be angry. They might be grieving. We don't really know which of those things that it is. We don't really know what it is they're going through. But if this person is somebody you were close to, and then they just suddenly went dark on you the second that you got laid off, to me that really indicates that there's something going on with them that they want to avoid. That they're having some feelings that are big, hard feelings that they might not know what to do with or not know how to name, and so instead of facing those feelings, they're basically avoiding those feelings by avoiding you. That's very, very hard because it leaves you in the lurch. But it is truly not about you at all.
Jen Dionisio 25:16 Yeah, CS, I'm sure that Sara was saying that your brain was saying, "Oh, but it is about me," you know, because that is really common. And I would have that reaction myself. We have a lot of inner voices that tell us stories about what we think happened, or what we think will happen. And, you know, what I'm hearing in you, CS, are these feelings of betrayal and confusion and grief. And under the influence of those feelings, it's really easy to start telling yourself really cruel and unkind stories about why your boss went silent from that betrayal lens. You might think, "Oh, my gosh, that person never appreciated working with me. I bet they were angling for me to get laid off." Or that confusion can really put you for a loop in terms of like, "What's wrong with me? Why didn't I see this coming? Why didn't I expect this?" Or that grief lens can be more like, "I'm never going to be able to trust anyone again, knowing that I've had this experience. And now I'm afraid to open up." And I heard a little bit of that in CS's dilemma that they shared. And I don't want that for them.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 26:44 Gosh, and some of this is so resonant for me personally, I don't know what experiences you have had, but I've had experiences where somebody who was really important to me kind of fell out of my life in weird ways. And like, I think one of the things that just very much hit me is that feeling of like, "Did I just not matter enough? Was I just not valuable enough? Did I misunderstand the friendship that I thought we had, and maybe they never cared at all?" And so for me in that place, it's very easy to wind up losing a lot of confidence and trust in myself, which is something that I see CS has kind of said, right? It's destroyed something in themselves.
And I really hear you, CS, and know that you're not alone in that. That it can feel really destabilizing to start to take on those actions other people are taking as stories about your worth, or stories about what you deserve. It's very tempting. And I think it's so helpful to kind of like see this laid out because it can really help you create more of that space. So you don't internalize that so much.
Jen Dionisio 27:44 Yeah. Sara, I've been in that position too with friends. And, you know, I know where my brain goes is like, "Oh, you're bad. That must mean you were a terrible friend, you did something wrong that you didn't realize." And it does really kind of leave you in this tricky position where you start to ask yourself, like, "Should I? And do I want to kind of replay all these things that happened in the past to try to figure out what I did or what went wrong? Or do I want to focus my energy and kind of looking forward and figuring out how I want to accept this and somehow tried to move on?"
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 28:26 Yeah. Well, I think that's a great question, then: If you're going to look back, what is sort of a healthy lookback look like and not a shame spiral?
Jen Dionisio 28:36 That's a great question, because the rumination can really be almost more heartbreaking than the betrayal itself. So it sounds like CS might need something like closure. And closure is a term that a lot of us use. And I think a lot of smart people suggest that closure is not actually fully possible. You may never understand the why. And there may always be a tender spot in you that doesn't heal. But by looking back, it's your way to make peace with what happened so that you can move forward.
And something I might suggest to CS as they're looking back is, what happens if you reframe what you have been telling yourself the motivations for your boss staying quiet are? I imagine some of those may be things like "Oh, my boss was relieved to see me go and now never has to talk to me again." Or, "Oh my gosh, my boss was completely indifferent to me. Fine with me while I was there doing their job being my boss. But the minute I left, I just slipped their mind," which is in some ways can feel even worse than somebody, you know, disliking you. It's just that they do not care. But what happens if instead you think about some of the things that Sara mentioned? Like, "How does this situation change for me if I imagine that my boss was really ashamed of what happened?"
I think about emails I'm a few months behind on to personal friends that make me scared to reach out to them because I feel so bad and guilty. Now take a truly high-stakes experience like this. What does it feel like? If you start telling yourself a different story, that "Maybe it was my boss just didn't know what to say and avoided saying anything as a result?" Or again, "What does the situation look like if I imagine that my boss was just really scared of how I'd respond and was worried that I'm mad at them and wouldn't be receptive to this kind of personal response after the layoff?" So assuming that any of these could be true, that there are other stories that could be true CS, what do you want to do next? And why? If the thought that your boss might just be too scared or ashamed to reach out to you feels resonant, maybe there's an opportunity to think about if you actually want to reach out to them yourself.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 31:31 Yeah, I'm so glad you're bringing that up. Because if this is somebody that you care about, that you felt connected to, and if there's at least a reasonable chance that like they're doing what they're doing not because they don't care about you, but because they're stuck in some of their own feelings, then maybe you have some goodwill in you where you're like, "You know, I'd like to reconnect with them, but also stand up for myself." And so I'm wondering if that's the case, Jen, if this person wants to reach out to their old boss and tell them how disappointed they are not to have heard from them, what would that look like? Like, what might be their move there?
Jen Dionisio 32:06 Yeah, if this is still really weighing heavily on CS after all this time, I think it might be that move towards closure that might really help because it may be hearing from you, and hearing how you felt might really open up a line of communication with this boss and give them an opportunity to apologize or explain. And whether or not you want to accept that apology or explanation, you'll have more information that you can use to understand what happened in a little more actual fact and detail. And the only caveat that I would add is that if CS takes this approach to hold really lightly to their expectations of what that response is going to be. Because there's a chance you might not get an answer. Or you might not get an answer that feels meaningful.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 33:12 Yeah.
Jen Dionisio 33:12 And so you're gonna have to open yourself up to the risk that you may hear something that's helpful, or you may feel something that just kind of adds to the pain.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 33:24 Oh, gosh, yeah. Because if this boss doesn't respond, or if this boss responds with something that feels dismissive, or something like that, it can kind of reaffirm some of those fears. Definitely, I think it's valuable to have these conversations, but also a little bit of like, think about that in advance and think about how you might feel if that happens and know that you don't have to choose to go back to this person and look for that closure or try to make repair. You're welcome to just move on with your life. And actually, I think, Jen, that's something you mentioned before: what happens when you look forward here?
Jen Dionisio 33:54 So kind of going back to some of those feelings that CS has inside, whether they respond or not, I think that there's an opportunity to really kind of sit with what you're feeling and ask like, what can you provide for yourself? What do you need moving forward? And, CS, don't be embarrassed if those needs feel silly or extra. If you have them, they are valid. And thinking about your relationships with your colleagues and your new boss and future bosses, what about the relationship that you had with your previous boss felt good to you at the time, and you want to repeat moving forward? What in hindsight, maybe are behaviors that you don't want to repeat in the future? Or what are signs that you want to look for in terms of you know, what makes somebody a trusted colleague versus somebody who's just more of kind of a loose connection?
Although I will say, as I was kind of talking about that a thought came up, which is, sometimes when we have these really hurtful experiences happen to us, they make us close up a lot. And we end up repeating some of the practices that we found really hurtful in the past. So CS, something else to think about is how you can keep yourself from projecting these feelings onto your new team. So keeping an eye out for things like you feeling overly hurt or defensive or sensitive to people's feedback, or things you are or aren't included in, or signs that you're being really reactive and quick to blame, or signs that you're struggling to be objective and have empathy for people.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 35:57 Oh, right, because it sounds like you're saying CS's experience of their old boss's kind of shadow behavior can easily trigger their own. And that's the part that they have the most control over here.
Jen Dionisio 36:10 Yeah. Because you want to be close to people. And you deserve to have people that you trust. So CS, let the right ones in. And the wrong ones, it might be time to let them go.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 36:26 Thank you so much for writing in, CS. Good luck. We'd love to hear how it goes.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 36:34 Okay, Jen, I have one more question for you today. Are you ready for it?
Jen Dionisio 36:38 I am.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 36:39 Okay. So let's hear this one. It is from a strategist we're going to call IO.
IO 36:46 So, here is the situation. I am a leader for my strategy department at a small agency. This agency was started by a single person, and has grown to a few dozen people. We recently took on our biggest job ever, for a very large client. I struggled to get any staff at all to help me, as did other leaders. In absence of the right roles, I led the charge to develop an overall plan, shared it with our CEO, and so forth. This was on top of my work to lead strategy and discovery work.
Our CEO always said the plan was great, go ahead—until it suddenly wasn't. He has repeatedly scrapped days and weeks of work by the team, multiple times over, because it's not being done the way they would do it. Our CEO is not buffering anything, and constantly berates the team on Slack, saying we're doing a bad job and no one is leading the project. After a fourth week of random rework, I politely and professionally confronted the CEO while on a call with others—no clients were there. As a result of this, I was iced from the project and the CEO stopped talking with me, and a lot of work was taken off my plate. They also started removing me from pitches—ones I worked on personally—because I would be "too busy" on this project.
I see the writing on the wall here. But this environment of constant rework, no expectations, and being told my work is bad when it isn't, coupled with a sense of "only I can do this,” has taken a real toll on my emotional health and state. I've been doing this type of work for decades and this one has thrown me for a loop. Until I find a new position, what are things I can do to help protect my own mental well-being and maintain my confidence?
Jen Dionisio 38:29 Sara, I feel like we need a word for this pre-quitting purgatory that a lot of our listeners are finding themselves in where they know they're in an untenable situation and they're gonna get out of it. But in the meantime, they're a little bit stuck.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 38:47 Yeah, stuck in the PQP. Who hasn't been there?
Jen Dionisio 38:51 I've sure been there.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 38:52 Okay, so how might IO, which stands for "iced out" handle this time?
Jen Dionisio 38:57 I just want to start by making sure to say that what IO is experiencing is awful and unfair.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 39:06 Sounds a little abusive, honestly.
Jen Dionisio 39:08 Yeah. I mean, the fact that it's not only the rework, but it's also you know, the boss berating people on Slack, blaming the team for all of the problems, you know, not responding to people's requests for help. Thinking back to those Four D's of Disconnection, what I'm hearing in here are demands, denial of responsibility, like "It's the team, it's you, it's not them." And also this sort of like diagnosis of what's going wrong and it being your work instead of the makeup of the project. And what I am going to assume were some unrealistic estimations of what this work was going to take to complete.
Since IO mentioned that this is a small agency that's been growing, this is the biggest project they've ever had, as somebody who worked in consulting for a long time, like, we don't always get this right. And you have to scramble to adapt to the changing kind of circumstances. It's so easy to jump into that spider man meme mode of everyone pointing the finger at each other for what's going wrong instead of kind of rallying to be like, "How do we solve this together?"
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 40:26 Yeah.
Jen Dionisio 40:26 So, IO, I just off the bat want to say please don't take this as a reflection of you and your work.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 40:35 Yeah, I mean, seriously, thinking about all this shadow work we're talking about, it really sounds like this CEO is going through something where, you know, maybe they feel like they got in over their head, they're afraid that this big project that they got is gonna go badly, right? Like, that it'll have ramification on the business, whatever, right? Maybe they're feeling all kinds of things. Again, that does not make this behavior okay. It is absolutely not acceptable to berate the people who work for you and to treat them this way. But I think it's a healthy thing to remind that when people behave this way, they're reacting to something going on with them. And it is never purely about you, because there's nothing anybody can do that would make them deserve to be berated at work.
Jen Dionisio 41:21 Agreed.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 41:22 Okay, so Jen, how might IO actually handle this time that they're stuck in?
Jen Dionisio 41:28 It's such an awful place to be in, especially when, like, IO did a lot of the things we would have suggested if they wrote in sooner, like, they spoke up, they advocated for themselves and the team. But instead of it sparking, you know, a productive dialogue, it just got shut down. And this is why, you know, we always remind people that you can only control your own reactions and not others. So IO, I hope you're proud of yourself for not keeping quiet. Even if the result wasn't a big change, it sounds like that conversation gave you the information you need to realize the situation is untenable and it's time to move on.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 42:11 Clarity might not be what you wanted, but like, clarity is worth something here.
Jen Dionisio 42:16 Yeah. Unfortunately, like the cost of that clarity is IO's confidence, which has taken a big hit.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 42:24 Yeah.
Jen Dionisio 42:24 And that's especially bad timing, to have your confidence lowered when you know, you're in the midst of a job search, which can also take a hit to people's confidence, as well as kind of requiring you feeling pretty good about yourself to put yourself out there. So if IO was my client, I would start by asking, "Based on this experience, when you think about where you're not feeling confident, what are those voices in your head saying is wrong and bad about you?" Get out a piece of paper and jot them all down.
Maybe it's stuff like, "You're bad at your job," or "You should have been able to manage this better," or "You're not a leader," or, "You don't work hard enough." We all have these voices in our heads, and they get louder in times of stress and uncertainty. So I'm suggesting, IO, that you write these down, because our thoughts sometimes move so fast, we're not even consciously processing all of the negative self-talk that's happening in our heads. So writing or typing really forces you to slow down and listen to yourself. And then you can start poking holes. What evidence do you have that these thoughts are true? And what evidence do you have that they aren't? So IO, do not skip the second part even if it's hard to pick out what you've been doing right.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 43:54 Yes, I think this is so important because that inner critic voice—that voice that's like, "Well, maybe it is all your fault. And maybe you did just suck this whole time," right?—that voice is so good at its job. Like it's been training since day one. It's ready to go. And it'll just dump all of that stuff, like you said, so fast that we don't even realize it's happening. Those other parts of us, those parts of us that know that actually this isn't our fault, or the parts of us that know our strengths, or the parts of us that are proud of the work that we've done, a lot of times those parts have less practice. They're not parts that we are as used to bringing out.
Or maybe those are parts that sometimes we've been scolded or shamed for letting come out, like, "Oh, don't be prideful." And so it's harder to access that side of ourselves. And so if it feels like those thoughts are harder to get to the parts of you that are like, "Wait a second, I can refute this. Wait a second, that's not true." If they're harder to get to, that doesn't mean they're less true. It just means that they're less practiced. And so we need to do a little bit more work to give them that breathing room that the inner critic will just take in a heartbeat because, again, it's been training.
Jen Dionisio 45:05 I love what you just said, Sara, that it just needs more practice. And now, you know, for the sake of your mental health, it’s a good time to get in some of those reps. So, as you're kind of exploring what it would be like to refute some of the things that your inner critic is telling you, think about what would your favorite coworkers say in response to some of these imaginary dialogues that you're having with your CEO? What would they say you're doing really well? What would they say has been really helpful or supportive in how you've been working with them? You know, what would they point out are little things behind the scenes that you've been doing to keep this project from completely blowing up?
Or think of a mentor or somebody who's been in your life for a really long time and knows your entire work history beyond this one weird messed up project. What would they say about some of the like, criticisms that you have in your head? Do they think that you're bad at your job? Do they think you don't know what you're talking about? Do they think you're a shitty leader? I'm gonna guess if you start to pull some of their voices into your heads, you're gonna hear a lot more helpful feedback about who you are and what you're capable of. If it's hard for you to do these imaginary conversations, like, there's nothing saying that you can't start real conversations with some of your colleagues that you trust.
Because I'm also hearing that you're not the only one who's being affected by the CEO's behavior. You're maybe the only one who's been iced out, because you spoke up, but it sounds like other colleagues of yours are really suffering, too. So I suspect they would be more than happy to share their opinions on you and what they think about your work and what they appreciate about you. And I bet they would be really grateful to have you do that for them as well.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 47:14 Gosh, I love this because I just imagine somebody coming to me and saying like, "I'm having a rough one, this has shaken my confidence. Can you help me figure out some strengths again? Like, what do you like about working with me?" I would love to offer that person that pep talk that they need, like, I would love it. I would get so much joy out of being like, "Hold up, Jen. Let's talk about how great you are." I would say so many things that you would be like, "I need you to stop. I'm uncomfortable."
Jen Dionisio 47:41 Yeah.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 47:41 And I know not everybody, not everybody feels that way all the time. Not everybody is going to be that person for you. But I would just hold out this idea that, like, imagine that if you said to somebody, like, "I could use some support, thinking about some of the things that I'm great at right now." Imagine that there's a person out there, or many people out there, who would be eager to give you that answer.
Jen Dionisio 48:02 And since you're all kind of in this busted boat together, like, once you find those people, you can start talking about how you can all support each other through this time, because I'm gonna guess you're not the only one who is planning to leave. And that can take all kinds of shapes, like maybe it's venting sessions, maybe it's job search support. Maybe it's you know, those pep talks, like Sara was just describing. And it also could be something a little scarier, with the group deciding to come together and sharing your collective feedback to the CEO, so it's not as easy to just ice out one person and attribute these complaints to just like you and your character flaws.
Your teammates might be scared of being iced out too. And that's totally understandable, you know, if they need to, or want to keep quiet, but that's another option as well. Especially if there are people who are considering staying. And so last, I don't know your situation, but I just want to say it in case you need to hear it: No job is worth sacrificing your mental health.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 49:25 Say it louder for the people in the back, Jen.
Jen Dionisio 49:28 No job is worth sacrificing your mental health. Period. And quitting is not a failure. Sometimes it's actually saving yourself. So IO, something else to ask yourself is, what's your exit plan? What do you need to get ready for a job search? How ready are your materials, like your resume, your portfolio? Who do you want to start networking with, and what are the conditions that would make it so that you have no choice but to leave, regardless of what's lined up next?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 50:05 That last one, Jen, oh my gosh, that one is so hard for people. I've definitely heard that response. It's like, "I have to stay in this job until I have a new thing lined up. I cannot quit." And you know, sometimes I think that's not actually true. I think it's one of these places where we say "I have to" and then we don't really investigate the option. And I would instead say, "You can quit. And there's going to be trade-offs or challenges if you do," but it helps you kind of reframe and say like, "Okay, well, then what are the resources that I have if I do decide I really have to go? What are the fallbacks that I have?" Because sometimes we have those things, but we're afraid to use them.
And I don't know what the resources or fallbacks are that IO has, right? Like I don't know their personal situation. But sometimes people will be reticent to use savings. And they'll be like, "Well, I'll just tough it out." And while it does suck if that is a situation that you find yourself in, sometimes using your savings is a better long-term strategy than staying in a job that is breaking you. And if it's sacrificing your mental health, I think that's a question to ask really carefully. So I just want to encourage you as you think about what's coming up next for you, and you think about surviving your pre-quitting purgatory, what might be possible that you haven't considered that could potentially get you out of there sooner?
Jen Dionisio 51:23 IO, If you need any suggestions or want to brainstorm, reach out and let us know. We really hope that you're out of there soon. We got our fingers crossed.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 51:34 Jen, this episode has had a lot of hurt in it.
Jen Dionisio 51:37 Yeah, I keep thinking about that phrase, "hurt people hurt people."
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 51:43 Yeah.
Jen Dionisio 51:44 It's so hard because we have a lot of hurt people in our workplaces that make it really hard on the rest of us. As we talk about a lot of these topics, it's where I'm so grateful to our listeners and the people that we coach and the people who come to our workshops, because the work they're doing in self-reflecting and building self-awareness is not only a gift to them, but it's a gift to their colleagues. To so many people suffer when our dysregulation spills out at work.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 52:25 That is why I'm so glad we get to do this work. Because I think all of us need help figuring that out. It's not just jerks. It's all of us who can find ourselves dysregulated and being hurtful to others. And all of this work we talked about today, checking in with yourself really kind of slowing down, all of it's going to help you not be that person. And everyone needs help with that. Including me.
Jen Dionisio 52:48 Me too.
Jen Dionisio 52:57 That's it for this week's episode. Per My Last Email is a production of Active Voice. Check us out at https://www.activevoicehq.com/ and get all the past episodes show notes and full transcripts for Per My Last Email at https://pmleshow.com/. This episode was produced by Emily Duncan. Our theme music is (I'm a) Modern Woman by Maria T. Buy her album at https://thisismariat.bandcamp.com/. Thank you to Emotional Capacity, Capitalism Sucks, and Iced out for submitting their stories for today's show, and thank you for listening. If you've got a work dilemma eating away at you, send it over to us. Head to https://pmleshow.com/ to submit your story. See you next time.