When getting what you wanted isn’t all it’s cracked up to be.
Today’s letter writers thought they had their work lives sorted. But… turns out, maybe not. Should they start a new job search? And if they do, what questions should they ask themselves—and their prospective employers? Listen in as Jen and Sara help these folks pause their panic and get choosy—instead of waiting around to be chosen.
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Jen Dionisio 0:00 What are the signals that you want to listen to that say it's time to get help or it's time to quit?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:26 Oh, my God, Jen, it is so hot.
JD 0:28 You know, I wish I could relate, but I can't get my air conditioner to turn off, so it's still very cool and loud in here.
SWB 0:36 Yeah, if you're listening and wondering why we need to turn the AC off, it's to try to keep the sound of the air conditioning fan from being in your recording today. Thankfully, you can't smell a podcast, so I won't worry about how sweaty I'm about to get. Well, shall we get into it today?
JD 0:53 Let's do it. Hello and welcome to Per My Last Email—the show about what to do when work, not your air conditioner, gets weird. I'm Jen Dionisio.
SWB 1:02 And I am Sara Wachter-Boettcher.
JD 1:04 So Sara, what kind of weird is on the agenda for today?
SWB 1:08 Well, today, we have dilemmas from two listeners who both got what they wanted career-wise, at least on paper, but they're now both rethinking their decisions, and they need help deciding what to prioritize and how to figure out what's right for them.
JD 1:24 Ah, it's so hard when you, like, put in all of this work to get to a place you want to be and then realize that you actually don't want to be there at all. I've been in that position, and I know it's really hard.
SWB 1:36 Man, you and everyone. I feel like almost everybody I talk to has gotten into that position at some point. And you know, kudos to today's letterwriters for recognizing that the thing that they thought they wanted maybe isn't right for them, because I think sometimes people get stuck there.
JD 1:51 Yeah, you have to convince yourself it wasn't all for nothing.
SWB 1:56 Right.
SWB 2:01 Let's get into these letters, and let's see if we can help some people out. Are you ready?
JD 2:05 Let's go.
TA 2:06 I searched for a new job for well over a year before I found a company that actually wanted to hire me and would allow me to work remotely (my one big condition). The job itself sounded exciting, too, but I hadn’t heard of the company before and didn’t have anyone on the inside to tell me about the culture. I took a risk and accepted the job because frankly I was desperate and it was good enough for my needs. But since joining, I’ve been severely disappointed in the company culture, lack of transparency or even communication of any kind from leadership, changes to leadership that have been unexplained and sudden, etc. My role is also nothing like I was led to believe when hired.
So, I’m job searching again. I’m afraid of jumping to another company that is going to be a bad fit for me culturally. And I don’t know that I can afford to be choosy based on my experience job searching last time. So how does a person balance their needs for a job and their must-have requirements (for me, salary and remote) with the nice-to-haves that actually make a job satisfying in this shitty market?
SWB 3:09 Okay, so Jen, let's call this listener TA for "Try Again." It sounds to me like they took a big leap in accepting the role they're in, and it paid off in some ways. And in other ways, it didn't. So now what? How should they approach this new search?
JD 3:27 You know, I think a really helpful first step for anyone starting a job search is something that TA is, fortunately, already talking about, which is like writing down their list of must-haves, their nice-to-haves, and also, I think very importantly, their hell-nos. TA, I'm curious, like, what are those absolute deal-breakers in either direction, whether it's the things that make it really easy for you to say yes to whatever's next or really easy to say, like, no thanks, that's not for me? You didn't necessarily mention how long you've been in your new job, but I get the sense that it hasn't been a really long time. But still, I think writing that list from scratch is really important, because it sounds like even if it has only been a few months, only been a year, you've definitely learned some things that may change what your must-haves are now and where they fall in your order of priority.
It sounds like remote work was kind of top of the list for you during your last search, but I'm also hearing that what this experience taught you is that, like, that isn't enough of a perk if the company culture isn't compatible. And it makes sense that culture may have been more of like a nice-to-have back when you were feeling really desperate, having looked for a remote job for over a year. But I feel like what I'm hearing from you is that it is a clear must-have now. So start with that list, and please, please, please, don't self-edit based on what you think is possible, or what's realistic, or what feels safe. Be really, really honest with yourself about what you want, because, while I know you're nervous that you can't afford to be choosy, I would actually argue that actually being choosy may be your best path forward at this time.
SWB 5:19 I was so hoping we get into this because TA already has a job that meets their original must-haves: the salary, the remote setup. So, like, this is the perfect time to be really, really choosy, because you have your basic needs met in terms of, it's a job that you can get to every day because you have to leave your house and it has the salary that you need. So like, what's the point of looking for another job if it's not gonna be better than that? When else do you get to be choosy, except for when you already have a job that allows you to kind of sustain your life?
JD 5:54 Totally. I mean, TA, think about it—with your last move, you got the job that met all those basic needs that were really important to you. And like, sure, working at a place that you've described as seriously disappointing sucks. I don't want to minimize that, but I'm also not hearing you say that you're in a really desperate situation again where this environment is so toxic or your role is so off target that you have to get out of there as soon as possible. Is that what you heard, Sara?
SWB 6:24 Yeah, that's also the vibe I got. I mean, I can hear how deflated TA is feeling about this role, and I think particularly it might be that it is deflating when you compare it to what you hoped it would be.
JD 6:36 Yeah.
SWB 6:37 But I also think it's healthy to take a step back and remember that a role that's meh and disappointing isn't an emergency. And you know what? Maybe it also means that your last job search wasn't a failure, TA. In fact, it sounds like it was a success, even if it doesn't feel like it right now. It was a success in that you met your must-haves. You got what you needed most in that moment. You made that happen. And so I would encourage you to even take a second and celebrate the fact that you made that happen for yourself and trust that you can make more things happen for yourself again in the future. Even if it's not as fast or as seamless as you'd like, you'll do it again.
JD 7:17 Yeah. So, like, if or until the current job goes from disappointing to harmful, TA, what would it look like to take your time making sure that the next place you land is somewhere you actually want to stay for a long time? Now, like, obviously, there is always going to be some risk when switching jobs. There's a reason why, like, people often apply that quote of the devil you know is better than the devil you don't when it comes to moving roles. But I also think that when you're job searching from a place of being selective, as opposed to being desperate to be selected, it really gives you some big advantages.
You can be so much more pointed and confident in the questions you ask, or the information you request about what it's like to work at the place. You can really, like, let yourself listen to and follow up on pink or red flags that might appear in the process that you may want to shut down if you're like, "Oh God, I just got to take something."
SWB 8:16 Yeah, Jen, can we talk a little bit about those pointed questions? Because I know that I have some questions that I like to suggest people ask prospective employers, but I'm wondering what are some of the ones you're thinking about?
JD 8:26 I think one place to start is getting really specific about some of the culture questions that are top of mind for you based on what you've found disappointing or really like incompatible where you are right now. An example of that might be something like, "What's a good example of this team operating at its best?" Or like, "What's a good example of this team operating at its worst?" I think those kinds of questions, where someone has to tell you a bit of a story, help you not only get the interviewer's perspective but also give you some room to interpret how you might react to those situations. Like, would their frustrating example be something that you'd find to be just kind of a tiny annoyance, or are you hearing that story and thinking like, "Oof, that would really eat me up if I was dealing with that?"
SWB 9:17 Yeah, I love what you said there about asking questions where someone has to tell you a story. I think that this is a thing that can make all the difference in the questions you ask. You know, there's this post I often refer people to. It's from First Round Review, and it's 40 questions to ask that go deeper than "What's the culture like?" Because if you ask a question like, "What's the culture like?" you know, you're gonna tend to get generic answers, or people will be more rosy and optimistic in the way that they talk about the culture, because they don't want to say the negative things.
JD 9:48 "Culture is good."
SWB 9:49 Yeah, like, "good" is not a useful descriptor for the culture. Or they'll even say, like, "Oh, you know, yeah, it's a really great team. People are really supportive." Maybe you'll hear like, "People are really growth-oriented," but it's like, well, what does that mean, and what does that actually look like day-to-day? And so in this post from First Round, they have a whole bunch of questions they recommend, and we'll put this in the show notes, because I would definitely recommend checking it out. Some of them are really, like, startupy questions about, like, investors and business growth.
And that's not necessarily what I think TA is looking for here. But there are some gems in there around culture that I would definitely use as, like, starting off points for your own brainstorming. Things like, "If you had a magic wand, what would you change about how this company works?" Or, "How have you changed since working here?" Oh, and then there's this one I love: "What do the people who are successful here tend to have in common? What about the people who aren't successful here?"
JD 10:42 Oh, that last one's so good. I mean, if I think back on my last job, I could very easily tell people I was interviewing what made someone successful there or not. People who felt really strongly about, like, "We have a repeatable process that we stick to and follow on these timelines," not necessarily very successful in the place we worked. Or, you know, something I saw is that people who are really uncomfortable with ambiguity, especially when it came to scope of projects, or like defining even what the full problem was, also had a really hard time feeling successful. And, I mean, that's no fault of their own. I think that's an environment some people thrive in, and some people find to just be kind of chaotic and disorganized. I think people who are really self-aware about where they fell in those areas usually moved on pretty quickly instead of sticking around if it wasn't a fit.
SWB 11:40 Yeah. Okay, so Jen, we talked about some of the things TA can do to make this job search a little different than the last one was. But now I'm wondering if we can talk more about how to cope with the situation that they're in while they're looking, because it sounds like TA's disappointment is sapping a lot of energy. So if now is the time for TA to be choosy, and they might spend a lot of time looking for the next right thing, how can they make some peace with the job they have right now, this one that they worked so hard to get?
JD 12:09 You know, I think there's something really freeing about knowing that your plan is to move on. It lets you take pressure off yourself to, like, perform all that, like, proving your value and showing you're ready for the next level stuff can really stop being the main factor in where you put your time and energy when you know you're not there for the long haul. So TA, I might recommend that you start by paying attention to, like, simply, what parts of your day feel good? Are there, like, particular people you work with who make meetings fun or projects that you feel really confident leading, like you would just run them with your eyes closed? Or are there, you know, certain opportunities that give you a chance to pick up new skills that you want to take advantage of?
Once you come up with that list, then do the opposite by thinking of kind of what parts of your day feel bad? You know, maybe it's when you're looped into team vent sessions. Like, again, trying to figure out how to solve an organization's problems just may not be something you want to give energy to if you're not going to be there to see them take fruit. Or it may feel really bad constantly, like, getting pulled into doing the discipline advocacy work for your team, or working on certain kinds of projects may just kind of use skills that you either don't enjoy or don't really feel confident in. And maybe this gives you an opportunity to think of if there are things you can delegate or transfer over to someone who actually would enjoy spending time in those areas, or think of ways that you could time box or limit the amount of investment you're making in these areas. Those are very immediate choices.
But also, I think you can put some thought into what you want to get out of this experience before you move on. You know, maybe it's a gap in your portfolio that you want to fill, or like a really meaningful initiative that it would feel good to see through to the end. I think as long as your time spent on these things isn't feeding this feeling of disappointment or overwhelm day-to-day, you can let these be your new ambitions, because I do think there's something really damaging about feeling like you're just treading water and killing time while you're looking for a new job, as opposed to feeling like, "Okay, I'm not going to be here long, but what I'm doing is preparing myself for what's next."
Like, that feels proactive instead of passive. And I'd also say like, beyond work, it's probably a really good time to beef up any kind of joy or pleasure or excitement that you're getting outside of work from the rest of your life. You said you got a bigger salary with this job, like, use it to go take some trips. Leverage your remote status to, I don't know, get more chores done during the day so you're evenings can be free, for relaxing. Spend more time in a hobby or volunteer opportunities, like the things that'll still make you feel like there's forward progress, even if work isn't quite the driver of it.
SWB 15:13 Something that really struck me in TA's letter was how they mentioned that this current job was good enough, and it reminded me of that book that I have not read, but I keep meaning to: The Good Enough Job by Simone Stolzoff. It's all about the way that work has come to dominate so many of our lives, to be the thing that's supposed to give us purpose and meaning and fulfillment and a sense of satisfaction. And it really questions whether that's working for us. And then the book is all about, you know, what would it look like to decenter the role of work in our identities? Like, to stop asking our work to be quite so much to us, and instead asking it to just be good enough?
JD 15:50 Totally. I mean, I imagine if all of your identity and feelings of like self-worth come from work, a situation like TA's is gonna feel pretty dire, but if your job is more of a means to an end instead, there's a lot of freedom to, like, invest in all of the other parts of your life that when you have an all-consuming job, it never feels like there's enough time for.
SWB 16:14 Yeah, and I think you know, something I would suggest to TA is to maybe spend some time just imagining, exploring what it would look like if you leaned into this idea of good enough for a while. Not to paper over the ways that the job isn't an ideal fit. Not to just silver linings it, but instead to say, "Okay, what is this job good enough for?" Meaning like, what does it enable in my life? What do I get from this? What can it do for me? But then also, what can't I get from this? Like, what do I need to stop looking to this job to provide me with? You know, maybe that's something like, "Okay, I'm not gonna get the sense of growth and challenge that I really need in my life here." Or, "I'm not gonna get the level of meaningful connection that I'd really like to be getting here."
Or, "I'm not going to get the sense that I'm doing something good in the world from my work here." That doesn't necessarily feel good, but that can really help clarify what those missing things are so you can go get those needs met somewhere else. So you can ask yourself, "Where else can I get that?" As Jen was mentioning right like, maybe this is a time where you spend more time doing hobbies, you spend more time volunteering, you spend more time relaxing. But what are those unmet needs at work and where else in your life are you able to get those needs met? Is it your community? Is it your friends? What is it for you?
JD 17:38 I think identifying those things may also be really helpful in helping you determine what you want and need out of your next job. So TA, like, don't think about taking this approach as being indulgent or, like, distracting from your career progression, because you may ultimately find that it's easier to identify the right work environment for you when you're a little bit clearer on what it does and doesn't need to provide you with. I hope that this reminds you, too, that you don't need to rush this transition. Take that pressure off yourself so that you can focus on the quality of your job search, rather than on like the scale of it or the speed of it. I think you'll find that your next role will meet more of those must-haves when you take it slow and steady.
SWB 18:26 We're rooting for you, TA.
SWB 18:33 Okay, Jen, we have another dilemma for today. This one comes to us from someone who's also rethinking things, but from a very different spot.
RP 18:41 Aside from a brief stint, I've been contracting for over 10 years. I recently completed a contract and am now looking for my next client(s). I'm normally ok being out of contract, but the uncertainty is hitting way more than it has ever. I'm finding it stressful - compared to previous times.
Recently I thought I'd start to look at permanent options too, and even more quickly that resulted in talking with someone looking to fill a new role in their organisation. It was an informal chat which I enjoyed and I have an interview with a presentation) soon. IIt's a small org which operates globally and does fit my skills. I've met the new COO. I liked his answers about the work, culture, company background, changes required, approach etc. He didn't shy away from opportunities and potential challenges ahead. The org has many excellent reviews and I can see how they need support to update and scale.
Salary and scope is slightly smaller than I'd have proactively looked for, and it's a smaller org than I'm used to. But the role does appeal, as does the (in theory) stability of a perm job. As background to this, I've experienced burnout which was also due to harm from a previous workplace. I've liked the separation and independence being a contractor has given me. I'm now a different person though and have a strong belief I can separate 'work life' from 'outside work' life....but still maybe that 'fear' continues. How do I check if a move to perm is a good one for me? Am I overplaying the difference? What questions should I ask myself and a potential employer?
SWB 20:13 So this listener is feeling afraid of going back to a permanent role, because last time they burned out hard. Let's call them RP for "Rethinking Perm." How might RP decide whether this is a fit for them?
JD 20:26 The first thought that actually came to my mind hearing this dilemma was, "What do you have to lose, RP?" And I almost didn't want to say that out loud, because I think I can sound kind of glib. But how I mean that is RP, I think you're actually in what feels like a really strong position. You can take a full-time, permanent role to see if it fits and if it doesn't, well, then there you go, like, there's a cue that maybe you are better off staying independent, at least for a while longer. It doesn't put you in a position where you have to, like, resume some big, long job searching process. Really it sounds like to move on from that role, you might just need to line up a new client to sort of ease your transition back into freelancing and consulting.
And knowing that finding clients has felt stressful lately, you know, because things everywhere are feeling so uncertain, maybe this actually is the ideal time to take a pause from contracting and see what's changed for you when it comes to working in-house. When everything’s uncertain, it kind of lowers the risk all around. I'm also thinking RP is in a strong position because from what they've shared about this new role, it sounds like there's a lot of potential for it to be a really good fit for them. It fits her skills, what she's heard about the culture, and how they approach work there feels compatible. It sounds like there's transparency and potential challenges ahead, so you won't get caught completely off-guard. And so whether this is a fit or not, it sounds like a really good moment, RP, for you to take stock of what matters most to you right now.
If it's stability, maybe this is the right move. You know, acknowledging that as you said, RP, it's really hard to predict that in any environment right now. Stability is not as clear cut as it once felt. And if what matters to you most right now is salary, maybe you're in savings mode to catch up on retirement or fund a big investment in your house or something, then maybe this isn't the right move, but it could really go either way. So RP, I think I'd tell you to ask yourself what do you want your life to look like for like, let's say the next two years? Because I think in a lot of cases, it takes about a year to get your footing somewhere, and then another year to see if a place really does or doesn't work for you. And so what have you appreciated about contracting? Which of those aspects are important to continue having and maintain in whatever role you take next, and like, what could you let go of, at least for a while? Think about the things that have been a bummer about contracting. Are those gaps something this new role could fill, or are they ones that might continue in this new space?
SWB 23:18 Well, you know, there's something else here, because there's a lot of practical considerations, right, around, like the role and the money and all of that. But RP also mentioned that one reason they're nervous about a permanent role is that last time they were in an organization that really harmed them and left them very seriously burnt out, and they're afraid of winding up there again. Which, like, that is valid. But it also sounds like they're feeling afraid of continuing to contract right now because there's more uncertainty. And so Jen, I kind of want to talk a little bit about fear. Fear is normal, but like, what are RP's fears telling them, and how might they evaluate all of those fears, both the ones about contract work being harder to find, and the ones about permanent work leading to burnout?
JD 24:00 I am struck by the fact that RP didn't say that it actually has been harder to find new contracts. What I'm hearing is just that the stress of this moment is making the uncertainty feel more acute than in the past. So one thing I'd start with is to list out what all of your worries are about continuing to contract. Just get them down, however ridiculous or serious they may be, and then maybe make a note next to each of those about, like, what facts you have to back up those worries, if any.
I'm kind of inspired right now by a client of mine who's been asking herself the question, like, "What data?" every time some fear or worry comes up, because she's been finding that, like quite often, there is actually no proof or factual basis to her worries. And a lot of times, actually, the facts that she does find suggest that, like, the opposite is true. Everyone does not hate her. The proof is that they keep inviting her to things.
SWB 25:00 Yeah.
JD 25:01 RP, it may be also a good moment to ask yourself some what-if questions like, what if this permanent opportunity hadn't popped up? What would you be doing to find work right now? Are there ways to make that search feel less stressful? What would it look like to try to approach contracting that way? You know, again, with those like more practical considerations, like, what kind of financial cushion do you have and how long can that carry you? Are there places you can cut expenses in case things get leaner, or to kind of give yourself a buffer against some of the uncertainty? And once you've gotten some of those thoughts down when you reflect on your answers, I'd be curious to know if it changes your feelings about what this next stage of contracting looks like and whether it makes it a little more obvious whether pursuing permanent work makes sense or not.
And I think there's a similar, but like separate exercise to do around the fear of permanent work leading to burnout. I really want to acknowledge how intense and like visceral that fear can be. It's like it takes so much time and effort and pain to kind of pull yourself out of a period like that, and I can imagine that all of your instincts are wanting to protect you from going anywhere near that kind of abyss again. And at the same time, though, like, I want to flag something really powerful that you shared, which is that, like, you're a different person now with new tools and new awareness, and that you have confidence that you can separate work life from outside work life now.
SWB 26:37 Yeah, I noticed that too. And you know, Jen, it really made me think that RP might be selling themselves short here.
JD 26:43 Yeah, like, I get that the separation and independence of being a contractor has protected RP, but, like, RP has also protected themselves.
SWB 26:54 Yeah.
JD 26:54 It's really easy to let all of your boundaries get trampled as a contractor too, right? And yet, it sounds like RP has found a healthy balance. I'd be curious to know, RP, what are the practices that have supported you since you left that really toxic, harmful in-house job? Which of those might be relevant to this perm position if you take it? What sort of burnout preventative steps will be important to include in your routines, or what are or were your warning signs that burnout may be creeping in, you know, whether they're like things you're feeling in your body, or thought processes that you notice, or just like feelings that come up and stick with you? And how would you want to handle those in the future if you start feeling them again?
And I think related to this, like, what if the worst case scenario happens and you find that this job, when you take it, takes a toll on your mental health? What are the signals that you want to listen to that say it's time to get help or it's time to quit? You know, if you take the high stakes off this choice and treat it like an experiment: "does perm work suit me at this stage in my life? I don't know, and I'm gonna find out." I wonder if that also makes it easier to step away if you find that it's not a fit, whether it's due to burnout or, honestly, really, any other reason.
SWB 28:17 Yeah, experiments, Jen. Experiments. I think we've talked about experiments before on the show. I think that they're so important. I think that so much of our lives is actually just experimenting to figure out what works for us. And when we treat it like that, it really does lower the bar. And I think particularly at work, I think it's healthy to think of all jobs as temporary. All jobs are temporary because things change, circumstances change, you change, but also jobs disappear. Just because it's a "permanent job" doesn't mean your company is going to keep that job forever. And so I think it's really healthy to kind of say like, "You know what? None of this has to be forever. Let me think about it as an experiment. What do I want to learn from this? What are the signals that are going to tell me if this is a fit or not?" And then giving yourself the permission to say, "It's not a failure if I experimented and it's not a good fit. It means I learned something right? Like, that's the data I take away from the experiment."
JD 29:14 Yes, then you can apply that data to your next list.
SWB 29:18 Exactly. Okay, now, Jen, one thing that RP also said was that it'd be really helpful to get a set of questions to ask their potential employer. And I know we just came up with some for TA, and I think actually a lot of those would be useful here as well. But I'm wondering if you have any other ideas specifically for RP's situation here?
JD 29:35 I think if this is a situation where you feel comfortable being choosy, why not just address the elephant in the room with your prospective employer? What kinds of boundaries are hard for people to uphold here? Which ones are commonplace or sacred? What individual support is provided if people start to burn out? How does the team support each other or share the load? And I can imagine getting asked that question by somebody, and you know, again, in my last job, being able to confidently say, like, when you are on PTO, you are on PTO, and it is not expected that you answer.
And I know that that's not true everywhere. I've worked other places where that's not true. But that's helpful information to get directly from the person who is presumably going to be the person who's managing you and looking out for you. And I can imagine that there might be some concerns that like you're showing your hand, or that you might be perceived as soft. But if that's the impression, I suspect that this is not the place you want to try your back to perm experiment, RP. And at this point in time, I feel like burnout is widely known enough as a phenomenon that's affecting so many people in our field that it is an absolutely reasonable line of inquiry to ask a potential employer.
I mean, you could even point to your experience as a contractor, if you do want to shift the lens of how you're asking it, by saying something like, "I've become used to being able to manage my own time and capacity. Like, how will you help me in maintaining a similarly healthy work life balance here?" You know other questions that you ask may help clarify how they've handled or would handle experiences like the ones that caused you harm in the past, too.
SWB 31:27 Yeah, you know, Jen, I just want to underline something that you said a minute ago: If asking these questions labels you as soft, you know as not resilient enough, or not all-in on the cause, RP—great. You just dodged a workplace that is going to suck the life out of you.
JD 31:45 Yes, amen.
SWB 31:47 Okay, so Jen, one last piece of the dilemma—RP, also asked us to assess if they're overplaying the difference between contracting and permanent work. What do you think?
JD 31:57 RP, I think that ultimately, this is a question that only you can answer, because it may be that your contracting era was like training wheels for reentering permanent work culture in like a healthier and more sustainable way than you handled it in the past. But it may also be that the freedom and peace of mind that you get from contracting proves really hard to replace, even if it does mean accepting some more uncertainty into how much work you'll have and what income is coming in when. Thinking back to this idea of experimentation, like, I really encourage you to hold whatever choice you make really lightly, because there is no decision that you make that can't be undone, and you've rescued yourself before from a bad situation. I hope that you trust that you can do it again if you need to. And kind of keep that faith in yourself. So let us know what path you choose. We would be really excited to hear how it goes and what you learn in the process.
SWB 33:02 And that's it for this week's episode. Per My Last Email is a production of Active Voice. Check us out at https://www.activevoicehq.com/ and get all the past episodes, show notes, and full transcripts for Per My Last Email at https://www.pmleshow.com/. This episode, and all of our episodes, was produced by Emily Duncan. Our theme music is "(I'm) a Modern Woman" by Maria T. You can get her album at https://thisismariat.bandcamp.com/.Thank you to Try Again and Rethinking Perm who submitted their stories for today's show, and thank you all for listening. If you've got a dilemma eating away at you, we absolutely need to hear it. Send it to us. Head to https://www.pmleshow.com/ and click the submit your story link. See you next time.