Wait, “emotional garbage disposal” wasn’t in the job description, was it?
It’s Groundhog Day for today’s letter-writer—every time she meets with her direct report for a one-on-one, they spend the entire meeting trauma dumping. It’s gotten to the point where this manager is feeling herself zoning out during their time together, and she’s worried she’s become a bad manager. Is it her job to be the team’s emotional sponge, regardless of all the other responsibilities she’s juggling? Listen in as Sara and Jen help this letterwriter set clear boundaries—and reexamine what should (and shouldn’t) be on her managerial plate.
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Jen Dionisio 0:00 Healthy relationships aren't zero sum. You can both get what you need here.
JD 0:24 Sara, are you hearing the massive lawn mower going outside my house?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:28 Oh, no, not currently. Let's hope it stays that way?
JD 0:31 Yeah, lot of lawn mower for a very small yard.
SWB 0:35 Welcome to summer, everybody. And welcome to Per My Last Email. My name is Sara Wachter-Boettcher.
JD 0:41 And I am Jen Dionisio.
SWB 0:43 And on every episode of Per My Last Email, we talk about what to do when work gets weird. But before we get to today's dilemma, I want to share with you real quick that we are running a summer flash sale on some of our services at Active Voice. So if you have, let's say, professional development funds that expire at the end of the fiscal year, or maybe you just needed a sign that it was time to invest in yourself, this is for you.
JD 1:07 It's time.
SWB 1:08 For one week after this episode drops until June 20, you can get $100 off our 90-minute one-on-one strategy sessions. These are deep dive coaching sessions on a single topic of your choice. And you can also get $100 off our on-demand course Team Up, which is all about building a team that talks, works, and wins together, without the drama. So both of those are on our website, https://www.activevoicehq.com/, and again, that's $100 off either a 90-minute strategy session or the Team Up course, now until June 20.
SWB 1:44 Whew, okay, sales pitch over.
JD 1:45 Great pitch. Not creepy. So, Sara, what kind of weird are we talking about today?
SWB 1:51 Okay, so today's letter comes to us from a manager who is struggling with someone on their team which seemed right up your alley, Jen.
JD 2:00 Hmm, no, not me. Never felt that way. You know, it's funny, I was actually just talking to someone in our community about how hard it is to get support when you're dealing with a challenging direct report. Like, you're responsible for the person's career growth, so you're hesitant to bring all of your concerns to your bosses. But then also, it can feel really uncomfortable to ask for advice in community forums, because you worry that they'll see it and know who you're talking about. And then there's like a lot of shame that comes along with feeling like you just aren't up for the challenge of wrangling a person, and that that is always a "you" problem and never a "them" problem. Any of that coming up in the submission?
SWB 2:43 Oh, just wait, there's some of that and a lot more.
ES 2:47 I manage someone that always shares bad or depressing news about themselves with me, whether in meetings or direct messages. This can be anything from stories about past abusive relationships they were in to sharing their current medical ailments or mental health struggles. It's gotten to the point where it's so constant, I feel desensitized to it. This person is isolated and has no one in their life they regularly talk to. So I get why they feel the need to share this kind of stuff with me, but it's a lot. I'm too scared to tell them to stop because it feels mean when they don't have anyone else to talk to. Hence why I'm in desensitized mode - I listen and tell them I'm sorry to hear that, but then quickly change topics.
Am I a terrible line manager for doing this? I don't get the impression this person is asking for help by sharing these things. When I previously suggested they speak to our company counsellor, they said they had done so previously but were fine now. So I get the impression they just want someone to listen to their stories. Do I just listen and move on? Is that okay? Or is there a better way to respond to a team member who always shares bad news?
SWB 3:53 Okay, Jen. It sounds like our manager friend is feeling like quite the emotional sponge. So let's call her ES. What do you think? Does ES have to keep sucking up all her direct report's feelings and traumatic experiences? Where's the line here, and how might ES change this dynamic?
JD 4:12 Well, that first question, I'm gonna say, my very brief answer is no. ES, you do not have to keep sopping up all of your direct report's feelings and trauma. That is definitely not in your job description. And intellectually, I'm pretty sure you know that already, but I imagine the kind of manager who's writing in with a concern like this is also a manager who cares a lot about the people that they manage and is really invested in their happiness and success. So the part of you that's feeling like this dynamic is crossing a line, that maybe you're not the right person to be on the receiving end of all these stories, is pretty easy to squash down and ignore, because you want to show up for this person and be there for them, especially if it feels like they don't have anyone else to talk to.
But here's the thing, you know, your letter to us has already confirmed something that I want you to let sink in: you are not the only person they have to talk to. Your suggestion that they talk to the company counselor was a great one, and they said they had and are doing okay now. Whether that's true or not...to be determined, but that option is still open to them, as are conversations with outside therapists, spiritual guides, friends, family, whoever. And I mean, why would they go to any of those people when they're getting their need to share and disclose satisfied by you?
SWB 5:42 Mmm. You know, Jen, that was something I picked up on too. The letter writer says that this person doesn't have anybody else to talk to, and so they understand why they feel the need to share this with them. But I think what I might separate out is the need to share from the need to share with you, ES. Because, yeah, we all need and deserve people we can talk to, but this feels like way too much for you to hold as a manager. And as Jen said, it's not true that you're the only person that they could be talking to.
JD 6:11 Yeah, it may be that they just feel like your responses to them are kind of meeting a need they have, and I think really opening up to a manager that you trust is something that happens a lot, and feeling like maybe it's too much is a pretty common challenge that a lot of managers have, you know. But I've seen it manifest in some pretty different ways. And the first one is pretty benign, honestly. You know, I'm thinking of a colleague of mine who managed somebody who'd been through a lot of trauma, like workplace trauma, personal trauma, and it spilled out into a lot of her everyday conversations because she had a really dark sense of humor and was very outgoing and didn't have any like, embarrassment or shame dropping these really, like, bleak and stunning stories into everyday conversation.
But the problem was, you know, you'd like watch her share one of these stories in a conversation with a team, and everyone would just suddenly, like, clam up and get real awkward. Very much sort of like a record scratch moment. Because a lot of people, and probably more people on the team than not, just weren't comfortable hearing those kinds of stories from a colleague. And it was really sort of heartbreaking, because we knew she wanted to connect with people, but how she was trying to connect with people was actually making them avoid talking to her, because it just felt like too much.
SWB 7:43 Okay, honestly, Jen? I relate to this person. I mean, part of processing trauma and healing, I think, can really be about reclaiming those experiences, like, letting them become something you're not ashamed of and giving yourself permission to name them and own them as things that happen to you. To like, let those stories be part of your story without that meaning something terrible about you.
JD 8:06 Right.
SWB 8:07 Yeah, which I think is good and healthy, but I think something I had to learn, and maybe continue to learn, like most things in life, you know, something you always kind of sit with is that it's good, that I don't feel ashamed for the things that happened to me, but I do still need to think about the impact of those stories on others, and who are the people I'm telling them to, and what are the moments where those are fair or appropriate to share? And just because I might be ready to drop that into a casual conversation without it harming me, doesn't mean everyone around me is, and so not every scenario is the right scenario for that to make sense, and I gotta think about my impact, too. So that makes me wonder, like, what happened with this person?
JD 8:52 Yeah, so she had a manager who was really compassionate but also very direct, and they ended up having a really good and healthy conversation about it. You know, and it turns out, she really had no idea that her stories were kind of weirding people out, and was grateful for the feedback, because her goal was to connect with people, and she just wasn't doing it in a way that worked in a work context, or, I guess, honestly, maybe more that particular work context. And it's not like, you know, the conversation she had with her manager didn't suddenly change her way of relating to people dramatically, but it did give her some more self-awareness and let her kind of catch herself and course correct if things were going a little too far.
And it also gave her manager the opening to flag some of these moments without it feeling like, "Oh God, I need to have this really big, heavy sit down with this person." I think, too, it gave her peers and other people she worked with a chance to get to know some other sides of her too, like her expertise, and her caringness, and her humor, without all of that being kind of buried under these stories about things that had happened in the past.
SWB 10:06 You know, I think this is a great example, because it sounds like the way her manager approached the situation didn't shame her. And I think that's often where it goes sideways, where if somebody is sharing something that maybe they historically had shame attached to or something traumatic, if they feel like they're being told that they need to shut up, or that like there's something wrong with them, or that they should be ashamed for mentioning things that have happened to them, I think that can be really hurtful, because that's not really the situation here. It's not, "You shouldn't talk about this," or, like, "Keep it to yourself," or, "Push it down," but more like, "What's too much in this context? What might harm other people? What might derail or overwhelm the team and keep us from getting things done that we need to get done?" And so I think all of those are really important questions to ask yourself if you're somebody who tends to maybe overshare sometimes.
JD 11:00 Not us. Hm-mm.
SWB 11:01 Okay. So Jen, you said that you've seen this go multiple ways. So how else have you seen it go?
JD 11:06 Well, personally, I've seen a much more sinister side of this. So I had a direct report that I definitely let come to too many one-on-ones over the course of months with personal baggage instead of work talk. Things like health problems, and her kids' challenges, and a divorce that was coming. And as a fellow empathetic manager, yes, like, I let her come and vent over and over because I really felt like that's what she needed, and maybe what I would need if I was in that situation. And then she started having performance issues. But I really went to bat for her because I had all of this personal context about what she was dealing with outside of work. I mean and plus it was the pandemic, so who wasn't dealing with a lot, you know?
And I put her on the easiest projects and started working with her in HR to try to get her some leave, but, I mean, she was taking up a lot more time than my other reports, which I knew wasn't fair, but I was like, "Okay, maybe this isn't permanent. You know, we're just getting through a rocky period." But then I found out that it had all been bullshit.
SWB 12:20 Oh no.
JD 12:21 Yeah, so all of the problems were actually made up. Her marriage was great. What she did have was a second full-time job, and had pretty much kind of manipulated and preyed on my compassion to help her get away with having two jobs.
SWB 12:37 Jen, she was just plain lying to you. That is sinister.
JD 12:41 Oh, it was. You know, so no surprise that one didn't really have a happy ending, and she, I think, lost both jobs, and is doing God knows what now. But I learned a lot from that experience about not letting my empathy cloud my intuition. You know, like, those two can work together. And I knew our dynamic wasn't right, but yes, I put her needs ahead of my own, and ultimately it bit me in the ass. And like, that's a really extreme anecdote, and I'm not sharing it to make ES paranoid. ES, your team member is probably not trying to manipulate you, but I do want to give you an opportunity to just, even briefly, let yourself feel something other than guilt and worry about this dynamic. "Good managers" aren't supposed to feel anger, or annoyance, or frustration towards their people.
Good managers are supposed to put their team members' needs ahead of their own, right? But if you were to play the role of a "bad manager," someone a little selfish, or disinterested, or no-nonsense like, what would you do differently in these conversations? And I'm not advising you to pull a 180 and go do those things. Doesn't sound like that would be natural to you in any way. But I do want you to start thinking about what options you have for navigating these interactions that are somewhere between the extremes of playing possum or being dismissive and mean.
SWB 14:17 Yes, you know, I think this goes back to that manager/martyr conversation that we've had before on the show: managers feeling like it's all on them to protect their teams, to nurture, to be the shit umbrella, to make life easier for everybody, and then losing themselves and their own needs and boundaries in the process. It's no wonder to me that there are now all of these, like, reports and studies coming out about how, like, "Gen Z doesn't want to become a manager," and, "Managers want to get out of management." And I think a lot of it is because that model of management, and what some of us have, like, absorbed as what good management looks like, is so unsustainable and draining. And it's like we have these two pictures in our head, like the good manager who is selfless and the martyr, and that destroys us. Or the bad manager who's just like the jerky boss, and nobody wants to be that.
JD 15:04 Yeah, there's got to be a middle ground where you're not needing to have, you know, a therapy degree in order to be a successful manager. So there's actually another roleplay that I think I might suggest that ES does in their head. So ES, I actually want you to imagine yourself as the kind of manager that you need and the kind of manager that's looking out for your wellbeing. Start to ask yourself, how would they suggest that you handle this situation? I mean, if I was your manager, some questions I'd want to ask you are things like, how is being on the receiving end of all of this sort of depressing news affecting your work life? How is this desensitization that you mentioned impacting your relationship with your direct report or with other team members?
You know, you said you're scared what will happen if you don't listen. Like, what are you worried is possibly gonna happen? What resources or support would help take this burden off your shoulders? And if this person isn't asking you for help, and they say they have it covered, what do you think is your obligation to listen to their stories, and what do you need to get from this relationship to feel like both of you are getting your needs met? We teach the concept of what's called the third entity in our manager training program, and that's where you know, within a relationship, there's your needs, their needs, and then the needs of the relationship itself. And right now, this relationship that you have with your direct report sounds like it's primarily focused on their need to share and not really leaving space for what I'm hearing as your need for maybe peace of mind is the right way to describe that.
For a relationship that's centered on work experiences more than personal experiences. And those things aren't selfish for you to want at all. You know, we've all only got so much capacity for holding other people's pain and suffering, and that capacity can really fluctuate based on what else you may have going on in your life. I don't need to know the details of who you are, where you work, or what your family's like, or anything else to assume that, like many people in our field right now, you probably have some reduced emotional capacity because of all of the chaos and change that's happening in our field, or all the chaos and change that's happening in the world right now, not to mention anything else that's taking energy away from you, specific to your work life or your personal life.
So no, you are not a terrible manager for half-listening to her stories and changing the subject, but because it's causing you stress to behave in a way that doesn't seem to gel with your values as someone who listens and cares and wants to help, it does sound like there needs to be a different way to handle this dynamic moving forward.
SWB 18:07 Yeah. I mean, I think there needs to be a different way to handle this, not only because it's stressing ES out, but also because it seems like I don't know it's not actually helping their direct report. Like, sure, she wants to be heard or she wants to vent, but it sounds like every meeting is more and more of the same stories and the same venting.So ES it sounds to me like your direct report is pretty stuck. It sounds also like even though you are listening to them, even though you're allowing them to take up the space, they don't truly feel heard or feel like they can move on. They're not like healing from these conversations, and so now, because you're not setting a boundary either, you're just stuck in that same spot with them. ES, something to think about is, like, listening might seem like the kind thing to do here, but I would argue it doesn't seem like it's actually that helpful for them,and it's clearly harming you.
JD 19:05 Yeah, that's so true. And ES, it may turn out that in trying to take what's been a really bad situation for you and make it better, that what you do to take care of yourself actually has a better outcome for them, too. Set aside any feelings of, "Am I being selfish?" and start to think hard about what your needs are here. And if you knew that they would get met, what would you want these conversations to look like moving forward? What topics are you comfortable hearing about and which are a little too raw for you? What contexts feel appropriate for her to come to you with personal challenges and which don't? What is that right ratio of personal to work conversations that feels fair and sustainable?
And again, imagine that you're not compromising just to be good or kind, that whatever you need is what you ask for and what is honored, period. Like, what does that look like right now? There's a framework that Sara came up with for speaking up for the needs you have. It's called SURE; you've probably heard us talk about it on this show before. But basically it stands for Situation, Unmet need, Request, and Expectations. And I'm wondering if applying this framework might help you set some boundaries that honor those needs that you sound like you have. And if you kind of tried to apply that to a conversation to sort of open up this discussion with this person, you know, maybe it would sound something like this: "So I've noticed we've been spending a lot of our time in one-on-ones, talking about hard things happening outside of work.
And I'm really honored that you feel comfortable being vulnerable with me. But I feel like some of these topics can be really heavy and hard for me to process. I know that you've said that you don't need help, but because we keep coming back to some of these topics, it's leaving us with a bit too little time to actually talk about your work and your career, which I want to help you with. You know, I care about you as a person, and I want you to have the support you need, but I don't feel equipped to give you this kind of support as a manager. And I would really like to suggest that you find a friend or a professional who does have the right tools to help you process some of these experiences."
SWB 21:39 Yes.
JD 21:40 And I mean, it's gonna feel weird, and awkward, and maybe even a little bit stiff, but it's gonna open that door up. You can't control their reaction. And there's a range of what that might look like, you know? They may have a similar reaction to that one that my former colleague did, which was like, "Of course. God, I didn't realize how much time we were spending on these things. I just was kind of on autopilot." Or you may find that they get quiet while they process what you're saying. And sure, you may find that they get defensive or accusatory, whether just in that immediate moment or for a while after. Not knowing their reaction, I'm sure, feels really scary.
So I would recommend or encourage you to get the support that you need ahead of this conversation. You know, whether it's from your real manager, not the one you're roleplaying in your head, or that same company counselor you recommended your direct report talk to, or someone you trust outside of work. So once you have the conversation, based on their reaction, let's say if they are quiet, you may invite them to ask you questions when they've had a chance to think on things. Or if they do get defensive, you know, try to stay curious about what's bringing up that reaction out of them. And if it gets to be too much in the moment, just suggest a timeout and tell them you'd like to give them time to reflect on your request and that you'll revisit the conversation in your next one-on-one. And if they seem to be kind of confused, like, "What are you talking about? I don't think this is an issue." perhaps set an agreement that when you feel like conversations are veering into uncomfortable territory, that you'll flag it and, you know, get them to agree that they'll honor that request.
Again, awkward. I know all of these things can feel really awkward, especially when there's no precedent for having that kind of equal conversation, but I really suspect that you'll feel a lot of relief having disrupted this pattern, because it is not working for you anymore. And while it might not change their behavior overnight, because they've gotten really comfortable coming to you with their feelings, and over-sharing may be a reflex they need time to break, but because you've shared your request and got their agreement to honor it, it will get easier and easier to course correct when that kind of darkness creeps in, and maybe even help them to identify the right person to have these conversations with.
SWB 24:18 And you know, ES, alongside having that hard conversation, and like Jen, I do really want to encourage you to have it, I might also suggest proactively thinking about how you'd like your one-on-ones to go in the future. Like, if you weren't starting with a big trauma dump, where would the conversation ideally start? And then what's a question you might ask at the start of the meeting to help frame that conversation, to help steer it just a little bit? Because this is also an opportunity for you to step in as the manager and kind of help develop a little bit of a new pattern together. So you're not just letting the old one go, there's something new and more productive that you're replacing it with.
JD 24:58 Yeah, and something that they can get on board with too. So ES, I know you're worried that without you listening, they'll have no one to support them. And again, we know that's not likely to be true, but when that guilt creeps in, whether it's before you have this conversation or in moments after, I want to suggest that you ask yourself a question that I have to ask myself pretty often: am I so amazing that without my help, this person is going to collapse into dust? Like, that's ridiculous, right? My mom said this to me the first time about a dating situation I was in at a college. You know, as coaches, one of our core tenants is that all people are resourceful and whole, and so there's an opportunity here for you to trust this person to be resourceful in getting their needs met in a different way, and remember that you're not the only solution.
If you need validation from a fellow very empathetic manager, you are not a terrible person for wanting to change this dynamic. Your courage in calling it out may even be the start of something new and much more meaningful between the two of you, you know, where you both get to be honest and vulnerable, where you get to focus your energy on helping them with challenges that are actually in your wheelhouse, and where your peace of mind is honored as much as theirs. And I really wish that for both of you. Thank you so much for writing in, and just remember: healthy relationships aren't zero sum. You can both get what you need here.
SWB 26:44 Yes, you do not have to be that emotional sponge to be a great manager. ES, you're a person here too. Good luck having that conversation.
JD 26:54 Yeah, let us know how it goes.
JD 27:02 And that's it for this week's episode, Per My Last Email is a production of Active Voice. Check us out at https://www.activevoicehq.com/ and get all the past episodes, show notes, and full transcripts for Per My Last Email at https://www.pmleshow.com/. This episode was produced by Emily Duncan. Our theme music is "(I'm) a Modern Woman" by Maria T. You can buy her album at https://thisismariat.bandcamp.com/.Thank you to Emotional Sponge for submitting your story for today's show, and thank you all for listening. If you've got a dilemma that's eating away at you, send it over to us. You can go to https://www.pmleshow.com/ to submit your story.