Absentee leadership is the real horror this Halloween.
Today’s episode is all about ineffective leadership, and these letterwriters have a lot to say. One is fed up with their VP’s pattern of not advocating for their team…a pattern which seems to have cost their team tens of thousands of dollars in bonuses. The second writer is stuck in a culture of backbiting, fingerpointing, and a leadership team that even takes credit for other people’s work. Join Jen and Sara as they use insights from their latest research report to help these letterwriters get their power back at work—or decide when it’s time to exit gracefully.
Links:
Got a work situation eating away at you? Send it to us! Submit your dilemma at
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:00 Hey, you. Yeah, you. Are you feeling stuck at work? Maybe you've been told to do more with less, but you're already so overworked you feel like keeling over? Or maybe your company went through layoffs, and you feel lucky to still have a job, but like, things just haven't felt right since. If you've been dealing with problems like these, we want to hear from you. Send us your dilemmas and let us help you through them on a future episode of Per My Last Email. Just go to https://pmleshow.com/, and click the "Submit a dilemma" link from the top menu. That's https://pmleshow.com/ then click "Submit a dilemma."
Jen Dionisio 0:53 Hello, and welcome to Per My Last Email, the show about what to do when work gets weird. I'm Jen Dionisio.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 1:00 And I'm Sara Wachter-Boettcher. And Jen—tell me. What kind of weird are we talking about today?
Jen Dionisio 1:05 This is a hot topic, which is how to advocate for yourself when you have leadership that's absent or just not very effective, and they're causing you some pain at work.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 1:17 That is a lot of people, I think.
Jen Dionisio 1:20 Yeah. The dilemmas we got today are making me think of the research report you just published about, you know, what design and UX managers are experiencing right now. And for everyone at home, if you haven't read it, that report's called "Managing this Moment," and we can drop a link in the show notes so you can get your own copy. But Sara, if I recall, ineffective or absent leadership, those were some of the top contributors to managers who said that they're struggling right now.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 1:47 Oh, yep, they sure were. You know, there were a few things that came up more often, like layoffs, of course. That's not surprising those were mentioned quite frequently. And also things like increased workloads with fewer people, and just like constantly shifting priorities and plans. Feeling like every day you show up to work and there's a new new thing you're supposed to care most about. But ineffective leadership came up just after those things, and it also like intersects with those things, of course, right? Because, like, if your org's leadership is telling you to do more with less or telling you to shift gears every other day because the executive winds have shifted, that is going to feel like some absent leadership right there. You know, I think what was also interesting in the research was we saw this parallel between struggling managers and thriving managers.
So in our research, we had 132 design managers who responded to it, so people who have ICs reporting into them, who are working kind of frontline management. About a half of them were struggling. And about a quarter of them said they were thriving right now, like they were doing well right now. The other quarter were like, yeah, I don't know somewhere in the middle. They're all right. But for that specific segment of thriving managers, you know, one of the things that we really noticed was, like, it wasn't that those people hadn't gone through layoffs or didn't have these kinds of, like, chaotic work environments. They often talked about that stuff, too, but the segment that was doing really well, they often said that the biggest reason they're doing well was their manager. They would say, you know, that they had supportive leadership. I mean, thinking of one person who said, "We have to deal with a lot of really challenging partners. We don't really have a lot of buy in across the organization. The environment is tough. But my manager is really supportive. But my relationship with my manager is excellent."
And so when we heard that come up over and over again, people often told us that like that really was allowing them to cope, even through all of the chaos. And so I thought that was such an important parallel between those who are thriving right now and those ones who are struggling, who are often saying that they just do not have that kind of support. And I've been thinking a lot about how when our line managers feel unsupportive, they don't have leadership advocating for them, they don't feel like they have somebody standing up for the design practice, or the research practice, or whatever it is, they often feel extra overwhelmed because like they're both trying to manage their team as their direct job as line managers, but they're also trying to fill some of that more senior leadership gap, but without the structural power, like without the title, without the access to executives to be able to really fill it. And I think that that is just making everything extra exhausting for people.
Jen Dionisio 4:28 Yeah. I mean, what a testament to the power of managers, which I feel like is in all of the research coming out, including ours, where, like, a manager can be the thing that kind of keeps a team intact and feeling like they're not falling into despair.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 4:43 Yeah, I think great managers can really do that, and also poor managers really make everything worse for people. And I think devaluing management or like saying, like, "Everybody needs to go to Maker Mode, right? Like that, some of that stuff? It just hasn't worked out well, because it turns out that there's so much people need to attend to around the making, right? Like there are so many other pieces to the equation of like how to get work done across different functions and in complex organizations, that we actually need people whose job is to really tend to the people and to make sure that all of that stuff is structurally possible.
Jen Dionisio 5:19 Well, I'm not surprised to hear that the lack of that support is taking a real toll on people, and that's definitely the situation with the person who submitted our first dilemma. They're a designer who caught wind of what sounds like a pretty inequitable situation in their org.
AP 5:38
I would like my VP of Design to advocate for the people in their department. Last month everyone in the company got bonuses—and I’m hugely grateful for this. Of course people talked about their bonus amounts with each other, and folks in other departments received 5 figures... but designers got nowhere near that. Word is the other VPs advocated for their people to the CEO. This is obviously a concerning move by the company that seems very inequitable. But it also is one more example in a pattern of behavior by the VP of Design of not advocating for us and, relatedly, following policy without questioning it, even when policy is burdensome, inequitable, and/or confusing.
I'm feeling angry because I have no voice in the rooms that upper leadership are in, and I have an expectation that the VP of the department would be that voice. Is that an unreasonable expectation? I've already told my boss, who reports to our VP, that I am concerned about the inequitable practice (and I know others have shared the same concern). What else can I do without relying on gossip to improve advocacy for our teams at the VP/C-suite level?
Jen Dionisio 6:42 Okay, Sara, let's call this listener AP for "Advocate, Please." And I'm hearing just so many different emotions in AP's submission, like anger at the inequity, frustration at not having a voice in these conversations, and just like the total disappointment that their VP of design isn't using the voice and the power that they do have because of their role. So why don't we start with one of AP's questions, which I think is probably a hypothetical: are they unreasonable for expecting their VP to be their advocate? And you know, what is reasonable to expect of somebody in that position of power?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 7:25 Yeah, you know, no, I don't think that AP is being unreasonable. What I might say is that they're having a really normal reaction to perceived unfairness. However, I will say it does sound to me like AP might be making some assumptions here about their VP and what their VP did or didn't do.
Jen Dionisio 7:43 Tell me more.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 7:44 Well, I noticed AP saying that their VP has a pattern of not advocating for design, not questioning policy, even if it seems problematic. And I'm definitely not saying AP is wrong about those things. Like, I have no idea. I'm not there. And maybe AP really does know that that is true. Like, has very much seen that firsthand. But I might actually first nudge them to kind of unpack this a little bit and really check in with themselves about like, well, where are those assessments coming from? How do you know what the VP is or isn't doing?
Because I do think that the VP has a responsibility here, and they may not be meeting it, but I can also see that when you get stuck in your head, right, that like, "This person doesn't show up for us. This person doesn't try for us," it can be really easy to start painting the VP as the villain. "They just don't care. They just don't support us. They're bad at their job," whatever it is. And maybe some of that is true, but I worry that when we get invested in those stories about somebody else, it keeps us stuck in this place where we can feel really powerless, because we start pointing all of our energy toward all the reasons this person is the bad one, and this person is holding us back.
And the thing that I do know from working with people at a lot of different levels is that who has power is actually a tricky thing. It has like some nuance to it. Sometimes people seem to have a lot of power, like they've got that big title, but if you're actually in the room with them and a bunch of executives, you might find that they get very little respect in that space. I can see that often being a big issue in design, not because they're a bad leader or they're weak or something, but because oftentimes design leaders work in organizations that do not value design the same way that they value other functions. And when that's the case, like if you have a CEO or a C-level team that thinks of design as a less important discipline, then you could have a design VP who does everything they can possibly do to tell a compelling story about design, to share designs wins, to advocate for the team, to attempt for parity and bonuses, and you might still end up with the same inequity.
Jen Dionisio 9:48 That's such a good point. There are so many leaders that don't fully reveal to their teams the types of fights that they're having in the background, to kind of protect people from that stress and chaos and sense of not being as valued.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 10:03 Right. And you might also find that the truth is that this VP has really tried to speak up in the past. Maybe they've put themselves out there, been that bold voice, pushed back, demanded equity, and they've been shut down a bunch of times, maybe even to the point where they're scared for their job if they continue doing it. But that's not to say that I definitely think the VP has tried to do those things. They might not have, and there can be other stuff going on. So like I have also seen leaders who aren't stepping into their responsibility fully because they're just scared.
And it often comes up when leaders have past experiences where they were made to feel small, or where they were punished for speaking up or for advocating for their teams, and as a result, they might be in a position of power, but like, struggle to feel powerful. And so even though they've moved up the ranks and they do hold power in the organization, it's difficult for them to see themselves that way. I might have mentioned this on the show before, but, like, I see this a lot with white women like us.
If you've experienced gender bias and you've experienced inequity yourself, you can start kind of internalizing that and really seeing yourself as the oppressed party, the party that's been harmed, and then go about your career and like amass larger and larger amounts of power, particularly more power than people of other groups, like women of color that you might work with, and still conceive of yourself as being the party that is oppressed, that's the recipient of harm, and to kind of ignore the fact that, while that's true, you also have a lot of power, and that power can cause harm as well.
Jen Dionisio 11:36 Yeah, whether by wielding it or not wielding it.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 11:39 Yes, yes, exactly. And I want to be clear: like, if that's something that's going on, where you have a leader who maybe feels afraid of wielding the power that they hold, or like, isn't really feeling as powerful as they are, like, that's a them problem. I'm not letting them off the hook. That's their responsibility to really figure out how they are going to wield the power that they hold and what they want to do with it, and they are responsible for showing up for their org. That is something that I think they're responsible for. But I think it's also hard work to do, and I think sometimes it can be helpful to have even just a little bit of compassion for that, while still holding people accountable to doing that work and making sure that they're effectively doing their job.
But I wanted to mention all these things, because I think that there can be a lot of reasons that your VP is not getting the design team equitable bonuses, including, you know, like, maybe they're just a jerk and they don't care about the people who report into them, and, like, it's all about them, and YOLO. There are actually a lot of different possibilities here, and I've only called out some of them, and I'm not calling them out to give your VP a pass, AP. Yes, your VP has a responsibility here, and you deserve a leader who sticks up for you and who cares about equity.
But I think that calling out that there's lots of reasons that this could be happening can help you maybe take a step back from writing stories in your head about why the VP didn't get you equitable money, and I think that that's important, because I think that when we get too invested in those stories about why other people are doing what they're doing and why things are their fault, we can end up spending too much of our energy being angry at this person and starting to see everything through this lens of anger where everything that they do is just more evidence of them being a bad leader. Jen, do you know the phrase "bitch eating crackers?"
Jen Dionisio 13:26 No, what the hell is that?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 13:29 You don't know?
Jen Dionisio 13:29 No.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 13:30 Oh my gosh. Okay, "bitch eating crackers"—the concept is essentially like, once somebody has hurt you, bothered you, irritated you, whatever, right? Like, once you start to see somebody in a negative light, it's very easy, no matter what they do, to start finding yourself irritated by everything they do, or seeing it as evidence. And so all they're doing is eating crackers, and you're over there thinking, "Bitch eating crackers."
Jen Dionisio 13:56 Oh, man, I'm sure a lot of people have felt that in past relationships.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 14:00 I mean, who hasn't felt that, right? Like, who hasn't had that experience of being hurt or harmed in some way, or just, frankly, irritated by somebody, like, sometimes we just don't like people, and then you start finding like, everything they do is somehow the worst. It's like, why are they doing it that way? Why does that person talk that way? Whatever it is, and it's like, we can get into these really negative really negative mindsets.
And here's the thing about that: when we start to spend our energy hyper-focusing on looking for evidence to support the negative things we already believe about a person, it is pretty draining, and it also kind of hardens us. It tends to strip away any curiosity we might have, and so all we're doing is trying to affirm the thing we already believe, as opposed to trying to understand or trying to be open to the situation. And when you're in that space, it's gonna be really hard for you to do anything except for like dump your anger out. While you could dump your anger on that VP, I mean, you have that option to go up to them and be like, "I can't believe you would do this. You are screwing us over again," I suspect that it wouldn't really lead you to a place you want to be. I suspect it wouldn't lead that VP to change their mind about anything, either.
Jen Dionisio 15:19 Right, or make them feel more empowered to speak up on behalf of people if they're already scared. Oh, so what do you suggest AP does? Because they've already spoken up to their manager, and there's been just such a big theme of disempowerment that keeps coming up in all of the conversations you and I have with designers. So like, what is an AP's power if they want to do that advocacy in a curious and effective way?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 15:51 Well, yeah, so as frustrating and unfair as the situation is, AP does have some choices here. You know, they may not be the choices that you wish you had, AP, but I think it's really helpful in these situations where you don't have control over everything, you don't control the bonuses, you don't control your VP, to kind of come back around and say, like, "Well, what are the choices that I do have?" and then to actively make a choice, to actively say, "Okay, given the situation, here's how I am choosing to show up." And I think that this might be a space where you could play with asserting some influence and saying, "Okay, well, what happens if I choose to invest some time and energy in trying to influence my VP directly?" What would it look like, maybe to request some face time with them?
I know it could be tempting to show up to that conversation with your grievances front and center, and for good reason, like this situation does sound unfair, and it does sound like a very valid reason to be angry. But I also know that humans, no matter how powerful they are, tend to really struggle to maintain their composure when they feel attacked. And so that's why I really started with like, "Hey, what if we stepped away from the stories and assumptions about this VP, and kind of made some space to be curious about what's happening, not because those assumptions are necessarily wrong, but because they're going to set you up for a conversation that maybe keeps you exactly where you are.
But if you were able to show up to a conversation with that VP through a lens of curiosity, a lens of like honestly wanting to understand how and why this happened, what it felt like from their lens, what they went through in this process, you might find that you get a lot further, and you might even find that the rumor mill got some things wrong. You may be surprised about what actually happened or what the VP might even share with you. And if you can find it in you to show up to that conversation with a little bit of openness, you might just find that the VP has an easier time hearing your concerns.
Now, you may not feel super comfortable asking a VP for face time, or you might be in an organization where, like, that's just not something that's available to you, like the VP just doesn't meet with people just because you request it. I don't know what it's like in your organization, but I think there could be another option here that might even be more powerful. AP, you said that you know other people in your org brought up concerns about this to their managers. What would happen if you got a group of those people together to raise the concern as a unit? Because this really does sound like a good moment for solidarity, for coming together as workers and kind of pooling your influence and power, and, frankly, pooling your risk too.
Jen Dionisio 15:51 Yeah.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 16:04 When you speak up as a group, it can make it a lot safer to speak up about the issue, to kind of take a hard stance and make it harder to ignore.
Jen Dionisio 18:41 I'm imagining too, like if you're able to bring a group together in this way, it may not only be influential to your VP of design, it may actually be influential to the other decision makers whose teams were able to take more of the pie of the money available.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 18:59 Yeah. I mean, it sounds like a lot of this came back to the CEO. That's something that I think is really important here. Like, let's remember that if there is a person who is making these calls that isn't the VP, if the VP is just supposed to be influencing, like, that person is ultimately the one who's responsible for the choices, and you may be able to get a lot further getting their attention if there's a group of you. Now, I will warn you, though, if you band together as a group, that can result in people feeling ambushed. And if people feel ambushed, odds are pretty high that they will get defensive or lash out in some way. It's not okay if your leadership lashes out. As leaders, one of their jobs is to be able to handle hard conversations and questions about their conduct and to not get abusive when they're doing so.
But they may or may not be mature enough to do that, and if you do make people feel attacked, if you start going in with accusations like "You did this, you did that," it's very likely that they will feel attacked, and it just makes it harder for them to manage themselves and makes it harder for them to hear you. So what I might suggest is, how do you think about collectively bringing these concerns to your VP or to the CEO in a way that is very clear about what the concerns are and that they're not okay with you, like, "Here's what we've noticed. Here's what we've seen happening. Here's the problem," but that also offers some curiosity and some openness to learning more about the situation and what led here? "Help us understand how these things are being decided. What can we do differently in the future?"
I think that these kinds of conversations, you know, they're going to be hard. They're challenging. But I think that when you can really show up with the idea that, like we may not have the full story about what's going on here or what the VP did or didn't do, that can just help set the stage for a better conversation. The other thing I would suggest thinking about—if you're going to raise some collective concerns, I think it would be really useful to figure out what it is that you're asking for. Are you looking for retroactive changes, or are you hoping to start a conversation about what kind of advocacy the design org needs in the future? Are you asking for commitments and accountability from the VP on making that happen? What is it that you would like the VP to do or do differently in the future? I think having some clarity in advance of these conversations can really, really help you show up with directness and firmness about what's important, but also in a way where your emotions aren't hijacking the conversation.
Jen Dionisio 21:36 Yeah, and there's actually like, clear accountability, as opposed to, like, "I'll try to do better next time."
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 21:42 Right. Exactly like, what do we mean by better?
Jen Dionisio 21:44 Yeah.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 21:45 What specifically do you want them to do better on? And you know, Jen, I think this is also an important time to mention organizing your colleagues around a pay inequity issue is an excellent way to start conversations about unionizing.
Jen Dionisio 21:57 Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 21:59 I'm not personally a union expert, just an enthusiast, but there are some really good resources out there specifically for people in tech-related work. And AP, I don't know if your design org is in a tech company, but it kind of sounds like it may well be. So one of those is Ethan Marcotte’s book You Deserve a Tech Union. And then another is a book from Janneke Parish, who was one of the people fired from Apple after participating in their unionization efforts. Her book is called The Tech Worker's Guide to Unions. And then another resource would be the Tech Workers Coalition, which is an organization that focuses on building worker power in the tech industry.
We're going to put links to all of those in the show notes. Now, starting a union is a lot of work, and AP, I am not saying you have to do this, or you should do this, or even that you need to want to do this. I understand that you may not want to take that on. And also, unions aren't going to fix everything, and also it can make you a target. But even if you don't go down that path, I do recommend reading a little bit more about organizing colleagues and building collective power, because I do think that thinking about the people impacted by this issue as a collective is really powerful when you feel personally powerless, because individually, it is a lot harder to kind of demand change, but as a group, you may find that you can get a lot further a lot more safely.
So really, just think about what is the potential of collectivism in this situation, particularly because, you know, from my non-lawyer understanding, Jen, did you know this bonus pay is typically exempted from things like pay equity rules in the US?
Jen Dionisio 23:37 Mm great. I love an exception.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 23:39 Special.
Jen Dionisio 23:40 You know, I think Sara, what you're saying, like the whole spectrum of it, you know, is such a good reminder that AP has choice, whether it's them taking individual, personal action, like reaching out to the VP and setting up a meeting, or them organizing sort of a wider group of colleagues to speak up against this thing that they're finding really unfair, and whatever path AP chooses, or even if they try multiple paths, I know from my past experiences that, like, once the cat's out of the bag on a situation like this, it's a really common tendency for people to, like, let this wound fester and kind of color how they feel about work, like even the good parts of their job. And Sara, so I think the last question I want to ask you is, like, what does AP do? Or, like, where do they go from here if nothing big really changes, or if and when something like this happens again?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 24:40 Yeah. Well, I think ultimately, that's something AP has to decide for themselves. And what I mean by that is that, you know, AP, there is a lot out of your control here, but you always get to decide, "What am I going to do with these circumstances?" So if you try to speak up to your VP, or you try to organize your colleagues, and you're still feeling like things are unfair and nothing has changed, I think it's important to ask yourself, "Okay, well, what'll make me feel like I've done what I can? What will give me permission to be okay with setting some of this work down and saying, you know, I'm not gonna just spin on this or spiral on this forever, thinking, 'I should have done this. I could have done that?'"
And I would also say, you know, what does moving on look like for you? How might you move on from this issue, from the situation? Moving on can mean accepting that the situation is unfair, not liking it, not feeling neutral about it, just accepting "this is what happened, and I can't change it, so I'm going to focus on the parts of my job I like, and I'm not gonna let this unfairness rule me. I'm not gonna like live there." But alongside that, AP, I think it's important to think about what you can't accept. Because, as Jen was saying, like, "fester" is such a good word, if this is something that's gonna fester for you, that's gonna leave you feeling resentful, that is gonna leave you feeling kind of permanently angry at the organization, mistrustful of colleagues, if this is something that is gonna stay under your skin, I would encourage you to just really notice that, to notice that it's not something that feels like you can move on from and to keep an eye on that, because if you continue to stay in that organization and continue to have those feelings, that is the path of resentment, and resentment is a really hard place to live.
It's so corrosive to our sense of self, to our joy, to our connection to others. So if we can't find a way to sort of like, take that anger and process it and put it to bed, doesn't mean even forgiving doesn't mean forgetting, but just putting it to bed so it's not an active wound, then it might be really important to say, "You know what, it's not healthy for me to stay here," and to start thinking, "You know, maybe I need to accept that I do need to move on at some point," because then you can put your energy into figuring out your next move, instead of putting that energy into like continuing to feed that resentment, because you deserve better than that.
Jen Dionisio 27:06 AP, good luck, and please just remember that you have all of these options, and when you can, lean on your team, because you're not alone in this. This happened to all of you.
Emily Duncan 27:18 Hi folks! Emily here—PMLE’s producer. If you missed the Manager’s Playbook back in August, I have good news: we’re running it one last time in 2024! The Manager’s Playbook is a workshop series designed for leaders who want to have better relationships with their team members, peers, and partners. You know, the folks you spend all day with but can struggle to understand! You’ll learn coaching and communication skills that will help you tackle all the hard conversations you dread: from giving feedback to resolving conflict. Close out your year with the tools to have stronger, less stressful partnerships in 2025. Go to https://www.activevoicehq.com/managers-playbook to learn more about the program. And bring your colleagues—there’s a team discount for groups of three or more!
Jen Dionisio 28:05 All right, Sara, our next dilemma comes from someone who feels like they're in a no-win situation with their leadership team.
LL 28:14 My leadership is ineffective and as a result the company culture is crumbling. A lot of our leaders are mostly concerned about their own image and how they will be perceived rather than being effective, efficient, and leading us towards a common goal. There is a lot of motion and no progress due to a lack of accountability and decision making is simply non-existent. ICs have to make key decisions and are being thrown under the bus if the decision doesn't suit somebody's agenda or leadership claims credit even if they have done nothing. How do I navigate this situation and make decisions without being blamed—and get credit for my decisions?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 28:50 Yikes. Jen, this one feels sort of like a continuation of our first letter writer. Like if AP's inequity continued for a long time, this would be the second letter they write several months later.
Jen Dionisio 29:02 Flash forward to the future, and the disillusionment with leadership has spread to everyone, not just the VP of design.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 29:11 Right. Yeah, yeah.
Jen Dionisio 29:13 So Sara, this feels like a pretty demoralizing place to be, and it sounds like our listener is really kind of feeling like they're in a lose/lose situation. So let's use that for their name. We'll call them LL for “Lose/Lose.” Gosh, where would you start with them?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 29:30 I think the first thing I would say to LL is I can hear how frustrated you are. I can hear how hard this has been. It really sounds like you're at the end of your rope. Leadership's ineffective. Culture is crumbling. Leaders are worried about perceptions instead of getting things done. People are thrown under the bus. All that sounds tough, and when I read your letter, LL, I will say it feels pretty extreme. And I don't say that to tell you that you're wrong or like that you need to be less extreme in how you describe the situation, but I will say this, when I hear people use such extreme negative language to describe what's happening, I definitely start to worry that cynicism is taking hold and that it's bringing its friend resentment with it.
And like I told AP, resentment is corrosive. It's a draining place to live. So before we go anywhere here, LL, the first thing I actually want to encourage you to do is to take a moment, check in with yourself, and get real with yourself. Is there any part of you that still believes that things can get better at this company? When you're honest with yourself, when you give yourself space to breathe, how open are you to trying to change the situation here, or to change the way you're approaching the situation? Do you have it in you to invest more in trying to make it work here? Because LL, if the answer to those questions is no, that's okay. That's more than okay. It's actually healthy to realize that. And I can't tell you if that's where you're at, that's for you to decide.
But in your letter, there's some flags that made me want to make sure that you kind of spend some time checking in with that and figuring that out. Because if you're in that place where truly, you don't have it in you to invest time and energy in changing anything, you don't really believe that change is possible, if it just feels hopeless, and you don't want to put more in, I want to give you permission to stop trying to make it work, to stop trying to, like, calibrate the perfect way to behave that's gonna protect you and get you credit, and to instead say, "You know what, I don't think this is a safe place for me, and it's time for me to invest in figuring out how to leave."
Jen Dionisio 31:36 Sara, I'm glad you raised this point, because I think there's a threshold for all of us where we just kind of have to call it and move on. All of our efforts are just going to have diminishing returns and burn us out more and more. And my initial reaction is that because LL wrote in, maybe there is some level of desire to make sure that there are no other options before throwing in the towel, or just like getting that validation that they've done all they can. So if we imagine that LL does some reflection and decides for whatever reason they do want to see if there's any kind of last ditch efforts they can try to make things work, what do you recommend they do to protect themselves and avoid getting thrown under the bus like it sounds like they've been seeing so much of?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 32:28 Yeah, and I want to be clear, LL, there's no right answer to those questions about whether you really have it in you to continue on here and to continue trying here. That is entirely up to you to decide. I just want to make sure that you know that, like, sometimes it's okay to let it go, to call it and move on, as Jen said, because I think sometimes we tell ourselves, like, "No, just one more try. I need to try harder. Or, like, it didn't work. I must have not done enough, or I didn't do good enough." And we can keep ourselves trapped in that. And I just want to give you permission to step away from that if that's what you need. But if there is that part of you that's like, "No, I want to figure out how I can survive here, or maybe even, like, feel good about my work here," by all means, please do it.
And I think the first place I would start is to really just remind you of the thing that is irritating but nonetheless true, which is, you don't control how other people behave. I think it can be so tempting to believe that if we could just find the perfect tightrope to walk, if we could find the perfect way to communicate, if we could find the perfect balance between assertive but still likable and bold but not too challenging, like if we could just do that, right, then, then we can ensure that other people are going to respond in the way we want them to respond. But that's actually not true. If you could, it would be very manipulative. It'd be nice, but it would be really manipulative. But honestly, you really can't, like you're not in control of their behavior. And if you're in a culture where blame and punishment have been normalized from the top, then those norms are very likely to continue no matter what you do.
So LL, I think that if you want to stay in this company for a while longer, I might suggest framing this question not as, "How do I avoid getting blamed," but more like, "How do I make myself less vulnerable in this toxic culture?" Because you might not be able to avoid blame. But there are some things you can do to kind of like limit how much the place hurts you. And you know, one of the things I would suggest is to think about your relationships at work, especially the relationships you have with people who have more power than you: your boss, colleagues who are more senior to you. Who has your back? Who speaks up for you in rooms you're not in? And if you don't feel like you have those people, I would encourage you to look around and see if there are colleagues you might want to form deeper connections with, colleagues who don't participate in these toxic behaviors, or maybe even colleagues you've talked to about the cultural problems before.
What would happen if you invested in building more of those relationships? Because the more relationships you have at work, and the more people who are kind of standing up for you and speaking up for you, especially when you're not in the room, that can offer you some protection. And I think the other thing that relationships can offer you is just some distance from the toxicity, because if you have colleagues you can trust to talk to about what's going on, then you're not alone in those experiences. Then you can process those experiences with other people, and that can really help avoid having those things fester for you and internalizing them, because if you internalize them, then it's when you start to question yourself, like, "Well, maybe I deserve this. Maybe I'm just not doing good enough. Maybe I didn't try hard enough." And nobody deserves this kind of treatment.
Now, LL, I do want to be clear that these are not solutions to that bigger, deeper problem of your organization accepting or maybe even encouraging this kind of behavior. These are just ways to make it hurt you a bit less. And I think it's important for you to still consider like, is that enough? Is having it hurt you less enough for you to be okay right now?
Jen Dionisio 36:13 Yeah, and I'd imagine maybe that is the band aid to worst case scenario that gets LL through until they find something else, if they do decide that they want to move on.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 36:23 Yeah.
Jen Dionisio 36:24 And so the kind of thinking of LL's second question about this situation where senior folks keep claiming credit for their work, how can they advocate for themselves?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 36:39 Well, I think we've established that LL's workplace does not sound very safe.
Jen Dionisio 36:43 Yeah. Boo.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 36:44 So I want to answer that part of the question with that in mind, because self-advocacy is inherently risky, like it takes vulnerability to speak up for yourself or to make requests for what you need. In an unsafe environment, those vulnerabilities are really amplified, so that risk goes up. So given what we know about your workplace, LL, I might think twice about calling others out when they take credit for your work, and that's not to say don't do it. It's just to say, know that if you choose to go down that path of saying, like, "I'm sorry I actually did that," or, "Excuse me, that was my idea," just know that that might be particularly risky in your environment. And so think about whether that's some place you want to go.
But there are other things you can do, and I think one route that might be a bit safer in an unsafe environment is if you spend maybe less time defending yourself from those credit-takers and spend more time asking yourself, "How do I champion my ideas more consistently from the start? What would it look like to more boldly own the work that I'm doing? What would it look like to be more visible in my work from the very start?" Is it posting about it more on Slack or on Teams, sharing more stuff in progress so people can kind of really start attaching your name to it? Is it choosing to bring more things to meetings, to bring up ideas that you have, to kind of like, make sure that your name is more attached to things? That could be something.
And you know, visibility can also carry risk, particularly in this culture, like if there's a culture of blame, visibility and having your name attached to projects can also mean that if a project is off the rails or has a problem, you're back under that bus. But I would say that starting to be a little bit more vocal about speaking up for your ideas and giving yourself credit for your work, that could be a less risky strategy than attempting to wrestle back credit when someone else tries to take it. But alongside that, LL, I would also encourage you to think about, how often are you giving credit to others? What would it look like to give the kind of credit to people around you who are also having this happen to them that you hope to receive yourself? Because I think by doing that, by speaking up about other people's contributions, you might start setting a new norm that some other people might follow, and you're starting to model the kind of behavior you want to see.
And if you're in an environment where people have kind of been taught to be selfish or to keep their heads down, they may not really even notice how little they're speaking up for others, or how little they're celebrating others work, or how little they're giving credit. Might not be something that they're even thinking about, because that's not on the radar. We can get so focused on our own hurt that we can forget that this isn't just happening to us, it's also happening to the people around us. It might feel good to offer other people credit and acknowledgement, even if that doesn't fix the fact that you need credit and acknowledgement. But it might start something generative.
And then, LL, I think again, that focusing on your work relationships would really help here as well. When you have a strong network of people who are speaking up for each other, it's a lot harder for those toxic folks to take over the narrative all the time. Jen, I don't know if you remember this, because it was a while back, it was kind of like peak Girlboss Era. But do you remember the amplification strategy the women in the Obama White House used?
Jen Dionisio 40:05 Oh, the heyday. That felt like it was pretty effective.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 40:10 Yeah. I mean, what happened was that in the Obama Administration, there were a lot more men than women. Despite it being like the most diverse White House ever, it was definitely still leaning strongly male. And women working in the White House were feeling frustrated that their ideas were being ignored or that men were taking credit for them, and so what they did was they banded together, and they agreed that they would all amplify one another. So they basically made a coordinated effort to repeat each other's points, to vocally give each other credit for ideas like, "Oh, I really appreciated so-and-so's suggestion about X. I'd like to hear more about that." Or, "Oh yeah, you know, like so-and-so said earlier, one Direction we could take is this."
And so, just like constantly reinforcing one another's expertise, and reinforcing their contributions, and attaching their names to things, doing that, setting up that kind of amplification strategy, it is so much easier to do if you have trusted relationships with your colleagues, because then you've built the foundation where it's safe to ask one another for this kind of support, and where you do have that solidarity with one another.So LL, those are a few things that you might consider. None of them is going to guarantee that people won't try to steal your credit, but it might make it harder for them to do so, and it might help you build a little bit of a more positive culture. Even if there are still big problems in the organization, you might even have a subset of people who really are choosing a different path. And it might help some of your colleagues see that a more positive culture is possible, even if it doesn't become supported by this organization. And I think that that can instill some hope in people. And it sounds like hope is something that you and your colleagues could use right now.
Jen Dionisio 41:50 Yeah. I mean, it's like we all have these sort of core needs of being seen and recognized and appreciated, and maybe for LL and their team right now, as they're trying to kind of survive this environment, it's a little less important who is doing that recognizing and the fact that it's happening at all, because when a bunch of people are celebrating work you've done or giving you credit for something, I think it can really dull the impact of, you know, the naysayers or the credit-takers that they're experiencing. Without that from someone in your orbit, I know I've been liable in the past to just start doubting if I even actually do deserve that credit, or I'm just kind of overreacting, or being a baby, or any of those other kind of criticisms you could put in your own head.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 42:38 Right. Like it won't erase the structural unfairness happening in the organization, but it will limit how much it's personally impacting you and your wellbeing. And I think that that matters, even if the organization continues being just as screwed up as it is. So LL, ultimately, I want to leave you with this: it sounds like you've been through a lot, and all the ideas that I've mentioned, amplifying each other, being a louder champion of your work, investing in relationships, all of it is work.
And that work might be satisfying. It might be successful. It might be something that feels really good to do. But if you're hearing all this and you're feeling like, "Well, that sounds frustrating and draining, and I don't want to do it, and I shouldn't have to, and I just feel exhausted by it," LL, I do want you to know you don't have to do any of this. You're allowed to decide that you're done here, and I think it's okay if that is your answer.
Jen Dionisio 43:34 Yeah, LL, and you know, I hope whether you decide to kind of double down and try to improve things for yourself and your colleagues, or you realize that leaving is the right thing to do, in the meantime, there are these ways that you can kind of protect yourselves and prevent you from taking on more of this harm that you then carry with you wherever you end up next, which is something we wouldn't want to see for you.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 44:03 No matter whether you decide to put the work in or let it go, it does sound like there's a lot going on here that is not your fault and isn't yours to fix. Thank you so much for writing in, LL. Good luck.
Jen Dionisio 44:25 And that's it for this week's episode. Per My Last Email is a production of Active Voice. Check us out at https://www.activevoicehq.com/ and get all the past episodes, show notes, and full transcripts at https://pmleshow.com/. This episode was produced by Emily Duncan, and our theme music is "(I'm A) Modern Woman" by Maria T. Buy her album at https://thisismariat.bandcamp.com/. Thank You to Advocate, Please and Lose/Lose for submitting their stories for today's show. And thank you for listening. Like we said at the top, if you've got a work dilemma that's eating away at you, send it over to us. Go to https://pmleshow.com/, and submit your story. We'll see you next time.