Ever listen to a dilemma on the show and wonder what happened next? So did we!
It’s a Very Special Episode of Per My Last Email! This week, Sara and Jen share updates from four previous letter writers. One was upset by their company’s unfair hiring practices. Another felt they had outgrown their current role, but was scared of moving on. Yet another was contemplating burning it all down and opening a juice bar far, far away. And our last writer was processing being ghosted after a layoff.
So, what’s changed for these letter writers? Did they quit their jobs, get the closure they wanted, or otherwise change their work lives? And most importantly: how have they changed in the process? Join Sara and Jen as they find out!
Links:
Got a work situation eating away at you? Send it to us! Submit your dilemma at PMLEshow.com
Emily Duncan 0:00 Hey folks, it's Emily, PMLE's producer, and before we get started, I have great news to share: Power Shift, the Active Voice leadership accelerator, is starting on September 11, and registration is now open. Power Shift includes 10 weeks of self-guided modules, live master classes, and group coaching sessions with Sara and Jen. You'll learn ways to reclaim your identity beyond work while still setting ambitious career goals, find your strengths and values and start leading from them, not in spite of them, set the priorities and boundaries that support your leadership vision, calm your fears, reconnect with your body and find your boldest voice, and identify your needs, hold hard conversations, and champion yourself. Self-management, self-knowledge, self-trust. This is what makes a leader powerful, not following some cookie cutter template or following the status quo.
So what do you think? Are you ready for your own Power Shift? Learn more about the program and register at https://www.activevoicehq.com/. Enjoy the episode.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 1:26 Hey, Jen.
Jen Dionisio 1:27 Hey, Sara.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 1:28 It's been a minute. Do you remember how to do this?
Jen Dionisio 1:31 Well, it took me about 15 minutes to set up my mic, so I might be a little rusty today. How about you?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 1:37 You know, it's the middle of summer. I've taken time off. We've also been real busy. It'll be fine. It'll figure itself out. I refuse to get upset about it.
Jen Dionisio 1:48 Oh, agreed. And the good thing is, I feel like neither of us will ever forget how to do the intro.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 1:56 Hello and welcome to Per My Last Email, the show about what to do when work gets weird. I'm Sara Wachter Boettcher.
Jen Dionisio 2:01 And I'm Jen Dionisio. So have you ever listened to this show and wondered whatever happened to that letter writer? Did they quit their job? Have they had that tough conversation with their boss or said no to that project? And maybe most of all, like, did things ever get better for them?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 2:20 Well, me and Jen have definitely been wondering. So today, we're doing something different. We are not answering any new dilemmas. Instead, we're gonna check back in with some folks who sent us dilemmas last year and find out what's changed for them since they first wrote us.
Jen Dionisio 2:35 Sara, I don't know about you, but I've had so much fun reading people's updates. Are you ready to dig in?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 2:41 Yes, let's go.
Jen Dionisio 2:46 So the first dilemma was one that you actually took the lead on, and it comes from episode seven, which was called, "Can I uphold my values and still get a job?" And here's what the listener that we called Deeply Unfair reached out to us about:
DU 3:02 I'm not comfortable with the way we hire people. In theory, we should have an awesome, equitable hiring process. We have playbooks and rubrics for each stage that we train everyone on a hiring panel to be confident with. We even got rid of a take-home assignment this year in the hopes of attracting more parents and folks who work long hours and wouldn't otherwise have an equitable experience. We have a dedicated DEI team at the company that "screens" our materials for bias and maintains relationships with communities where we should be reaching out for candidates from URMs. Our recruiters are upfront about the pay ranges for each position during the very first call with a prospective candidate.
Here's where I'm angry though. Our head of design has repeatedly swooped in last minute on a candidate the design leadership team and hiring panel is excited about and has asked us to down-level the person if we extend an offer. He claims that our organization should aspire to be one of the best in the business and that designers here working in a mid-level role would be as good as a senior or even a staff-level person at another company. By down-leveling a person, he claims it should also demonstrate how excited someone is to join the company and that it would motivate them to strive and grow extra fast once they come in—the whole, "we will revisit in a year." (I've seen him do this to other folks, including people in management roles, and it's never worked without the person feeling gaslit, or needing to get competing offers from somewhere else to advocate for themselves.)
The rest of the design leadership team believes in our hiring process, but we're at a loss of what to do when it gets vetoed based on his ultimate perception. And we hate being the ones to deliver the bad news—it makes us look like we have values as design leaders that we do not.
It's also not a consistent pattern on his part, either. I've seen him not want to lose out on a candidate who has an offer from another company that he perceives as being high quality, and matching it, and even breaking salary pay bands to land the person. He's also re-leveled a personally recommended candidate that the rest of the design leadership team and hiring panel did not evaluate well, shortly after his start date. All of this feels deeply unfair from different angles, particularly financial ones. I am fortunate that I get to hire people in this climate, and I know what I need to do to retain and grow the people I have on my team, but I'm essentially blocked by my own manager on how we can deliver.
Jen Dionisio 5:27 Sara, is this one ringing a bell for you?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 5:30 Yes, it is. I remember this one. I hated hearing about this boss undermining all of DU's best efforts. Like, I was mad about that.
Jen Dionisio 5:38 Yeah, and it's so frustrating to see people really trying to make a difference and just get thwarted at every turn. But I really loved how you kicked this one off when you first responded, and I think it's a good reminder for anyone who might be listening today and feeling like their efforts aren't getting all the traction that they want. Let's play that tape for a second:
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 6:02
We see you out here trying to make it better for people who are going through 7,000 hoops to get a job right now. Thank you for your service. And I can sense that you might be feeling a little bit dejected right now, a little bit like maybe that work you're putting in doesn't matter, because it's not being implemented or it's not being implemented consistently. And so what I want to affirm to you here is that it matters. It matters because the work that you do to make things fairer and to build systems and standards, it might not change your organization. You actually don't control your organization, right? Like, they're going to do what they're going to do. But it does change the people who encounter that work. So your fellow product design managers, recruiters, people who are coming up in the organization behind you, all of those people will see what you're up to, they will learn from it, and hopefully it'll help them grow and shift their mindsets. It'll help them be exposed to new ideas.
Jen Dionisio 7:00 So, Sara, you also pointed out that it seems like DU's boss was making a lot of justifications for their decisions, decisions you described as pretty sus.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 7:11 Yeah, I stand by that sus as hell.
Jen Dionisio 7:14 I agree. And because of that, you encouraged DU to unpack these justifications, like understanding the boss's underlying beliefs, checking in on DU's own desire and energy to try to shift those beliefs, identifying ways to stay open in those conversations, and exploring what alternative perspectives or observations DU could explore. You also suggested that DU might figure out who she could escalate these behaviors to with the actual power to change them and also identify who is actually responsible for reining in their boss's behavior, because it's not DU. And as you reminded her, their job is not to fix an organization.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 8:01 Yeah, that does sound like me. I say that all the time, don't I? Okay, but did DU take that to heart?
Jen Dionisio 8:07 Well, let's hear directly from her:
DU 8:10 Upon re-listening to the podcast, I wish I had been able to hear the coaching and guidance much earlier in the process of going through the experience I described in my letter. I may have been able to stay in that role a little longer and not have burned out so hard. But that’s in the past!
The substance of my letter, of uncool hiring practices at organizations, has been something that I’ve used to hone in on what some of my values are at work. I have a different job now, one where I do get to shape and apply a hiring process that I feel great about. I love hiring, and I love that I am able to manifest different outcomes than I could in the past. It’s a little easier because I have more power though.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 8:48 Okay, DU, I love a lot of things about this update. One, I'm so glad you reconnected with your values and that you got yourself into a new role where you can more fully shape hiring processes. But I also love what you said about power, because, yeah, like, the more power you have, the more it is your responsibility to shift things in an organization. Before, you felt like you were kind of beating your head against the wall trying to fix the organization over and over, trying to change something that just wasn't in your control. But it sounds like now that energy is much better spent, because you do have more control. And I think that's a good lesson for all of us, that when we do have power to make things change, then yeah, it is our responsibility, but when we are not necessarily powerful within a system, taking it all on us to fix it is just really draining.
Jen Dionisio 9:36 Absolutely, and I think we tend to forget how hard it was when we were early on in our careers and really wanting to speak up for things and not getting heard. And it's kind of a lovely way to reclaim that as we get more power within organizations to actually start implementing some of those changes, or to, at the very least, be taken more seriously when we raise them. Sara, that's not all that DU shared with us. She actually also shared that now there is a related issue that's come up at work. Here's the new approach she's taking:
DU 10:10 I am going through a different situation at work though, dealing with a new co-worker that came in through a merger, that does not share my values for how to treat people at work. Long story short, I thought about what it might be like to engage in some of the strategies in this podcast, either work to shift the person’s beliefs through my relationship with them, or work through another person who has more power to hold them accountable. I expect to try both ways. But what’s changed for me is that the burden can feel a little easier, a little lighter. I have to remind myself that I’m not responsible for this person, and that I am not (even if I do have more responsibilities at work now), responsible for an organization’s change.
I can get information on how hard I may need to set up boundaries, or what kinds of tradeoffs I need to make to stay sane at this job, if I find that I cannot improve the situation with this person. It just doesn’t feel like it’s my job, or it’s all on me to FIX EVERYTHING. It’s an uncomfortable feeling, but I cling to just how much relief it gives me anyway.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 11:12 Ooh, yeah, okay, DU, I am sorry that you're dealing with a colleague who doesn't treat people right, but I am really happy that you now have a little bit of distance from that, and that you can kind of look at that situation and say, "Okay, what's within my power here and what isn't?" And I love that you want to use your power to maybe influence this person, thinking, if you connect with them, if you build some trust with them, maybe you can see if they're interested in change. That's great. But you're not taking responsibility for their change. Like, that part's on them. And I feel you, DU. I also love fixing things. I've tried to fix many things that were not actually mine to fix, and it can be so hard to accept that not everything that we wish were different is actually something that we can change, or something that is ours to fix.
Jen Dionisio 12:02 I know I still always want to fight that feeling of, "Well, maybe if I just put a little more effort in, it'll all finally work out." And so Sara, do you have any additional advice for DU as they're navigating sort of the discomfort of this while trying not to fall back into that pattern of controlling things and trying to take charge?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 12:24 Yeah, DU, I think what I would suggest is just that you really try to hold tight to that knowledge that you already have front of mind right now, which is just because it's uncomfortable to accept that you might not be able to change somebody else's behavior, it's also freeing. It's freeing because it allows you to go back to the things that are in your control. It allows you to choose where to put your energy. It allows you to kind of like give it a shot with the stuff that is yours, and then, if it doesn't work, to step away and feel okay about having tried the things that were yours to try. And so DU, I think you really deserve to keep feeling that freedom, and I hope you hold on to that.
Jen Dionisio 13:03 DU, I am so happy to hear that your burdens have felt a little easier to carry now, and if you ever need a reminder that you are not responsible for solving all your organ problems, you know where to reach us.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 13:22 All right, Jen, it's your turn. Are you ready to revisit a dilemma that you took the lead on?
Jen Dionisio 13:27 Yeah, let's hear it.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 13:28 Okay. So for this one, we are going to go back to episode ten: "Who am I without this job?" And we are revisiting a letter from someone we called Love It or Leave It. We abbreviated that to just LI. So let's listen to LI's original question again:
LI 13:45 I started as a UX content manager and grew fast in a higher position in a middle-sized company. When I started, I was pretty new to Content Design and was excited to build things up, advocate and learn whatever I could. As nobody else in the company was an expert on Content Design, I became one. Everything I know today comes from networks and our great community.
However, growing in my discipline and as a leader, I have reached a level of knowledge and maturity where I realize how bad my manager is. I constantly learned not only content design-related topics but also leadership topics. I did my personal development and wrote my role profile as my manager couldn't figure out what to do with me. Everything I do comes out of myself and my initiative. I have total freedom, which is great, but also no support managing upwards or in any sense regarding content design.
The good thing about my journey at this company is that I have a great colleague who became a friend and climbed the ladder with me. We have a small but lovely team together that we lead. We are in the same boat, and we both try to get out of this dependency on this manager that is holding onto his power. The more time passes, the more I get frustrated as I don't feel valued in the company. I can do so much more, but I am stuck under a person's roof that I can't take seriously anymore. What shall I do? Try to get a new job, leave my friend and team behind, or fight for independence?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 15:09 Okay, so, Jen, if you recall, this is an experience that both of us related pretty hard to. We've both been there, right? Building new disciplines and spaces that don't quite know what to do with us and with managers who are keeping us a little bit stuck, and it's hard. Do you remember what we told LI?
Jen Dionisio 15:28 I don't, but I really hope it was good.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 15:30 Well, let me roll the clip:
Jen Dionisio 15:32 LI saying, "I don't feel valued in the company," suggests to me that this is actually a bigger issue than what's just happening with her manager. And, "I can do so much more," you know, that calls out like a real longing for growth. And so like, I would want to talk to LI about digging a little deeper into, like, what that means for her. What kind of growing do you want to do, LI? And is it possible where you are?
Jen Dionisio 16:02 Oh, man, I'm about to give a talk on this topic. So it seems like LI has been deeply embedded in my brain for all this time.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 16:11 Yeah, and, you know, one of the things that LI told us in their response was that she really reconnected with what growth looks like for her, and one of the things she realized was that she just loves to learn things. So she talked to us about how she's doubled down on trainings. She's making sure she does a couple every year. So there's a lot of just like clarity for her on what she needs to still feel like she's growing, even if she doesn't feel valued in her company. Okay, but then there's something else.
So when we talked this through, we told LI that while it's great that she has such a strong relationship with her colleague, we thought it might be worthwhile to look at her relationship with work and her identity outside of work, because, like, if leaving a colleague feels that destabilizing, that can be a signal that work is just carrying a really huge amount of weight in someone's sense of self. And so it turns out that was really useful for LI.
LI 17:02 After listening to the episode, I realized how strongly my identity is intertwined with work and started thinking about why. You can imagine that this question goes deep. Also, after some stressful events at work and my darkest hour, when I called in sick and stayed away from work for a week because I had no motivation at all, I reached out to a counselor. I wanted to understand the underlying catalysts for my mission-driven behavior at work.
We worked on my self-esteem by analyzing, understanding and adjusting biased expectations and negative self-evaluations and learned unhelpful rules and assumptions. But we also worked on what gives me meaning and who am I as a person?
So I started to explore what I like to do next to work and being a mom. I rediscovered hobbies like learning a language and started a community to connect people (it's work-related, but for me, it's more about connecting and inspiring people, something I always also did in the past and forgot how much fun that is but also how much meaning that gives me.)—just fun stuff like going to concerts with friends, planning vacations and enjoying life.
Jen Dionisio 18:07 Ah, what an incredible update. That is such a shift in energy and focus from LI's original submission. I'm so happy, LI, to hear that you are building this life outside of work that's bringing you all this meaning and connection and joy. I also, Sara, would love to flag for people listening that LI, I think this is such a great example of what to do when you hit those really, really dark hours. Get help, reach out to people, take time off, let yourself grieve and process, because you deserve to recover. And without that space and support, it can be really hard to move forward, let alone bring all of these new positive things into your life. So Sara, what about the job? Did LI stay or go?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 19:03 Okay, so we have an update on that too, and it's a good one, but maybe different than you'd guess:
LI 19:08 Guess what? I'm still with the same company. My manager is who he is, but I changed my strategy. Instead of being mad, I lead by example. And I see that he's actually adapting and taking things over. In addition, I focus on what I like, and on a healthy work-life balance. Because of a great AI project I did, I've started to lead the AI task force with another colleague, and that is a lot of fun. I still want to explore a manager role that might come up soon. That's probably the last step before I jump off.
Jen Dionisio 19:39 Ah, "instead of getting mad, I lead by example," what a statement. Ah, I think what LI did here is just, again, so important to flag because it reminds us that we often have more than just one choice in how we respond to a challenge or a challenging person. And when one approach isn't successful, there's really not much to lose in switching focus and trying something else. And in this case, it sounds like LI, you've found an approach that's letting you gain things.
I imagine by leading by example, you're inadvertently increasing your own influence in the org, and by focusing on what you actually like at work, you're able to really start counteracting those other areas where things aren't that fun or interesting or even just kind of frustrating and stinky. You know, by spending less energy on your manager, it looks like all this energy and space has opened up to pursue these things that interest you, like the management role that you mentioned.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 20:45 LI, I am so glad you let us know your update, and I just want to tell you it's okay if you still get mad sometimes, but I'm really glad you're choosing to lead by example, even if you feel angry. Your letter felt like a breath of fresh air, and I can just feel that kind of spaciousness in it that I was definitely not feeling when you first wrote in. I am sure that you still have your challenges, because work is work, and it sounds like, you know, not everything is fixed, but I'm just so excited to hear that you feel this greater sense of balance and that you are doing more of the work you care about that, you're letting go of the rest, and that you have reconnected with all those parts of you that aren't work, too, because you deserve to have that big, rich life, LI.
Jen Dionisio 21:30 Yeah, you do. Oh, keep us posted on anything that comes next, and thank you so much for sharing this wonderful follow up.
Jen Dionisio 21:42 Okay, friend, you ready for our next update?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 21:45 Yes, I am.
Jen Dionisio 21:46 So this one comes from a person that you helped on episode nine: "When mission driven gets messy." So she is a senior design researcher at a design consultancy who we called Juice Bar, or JB. Here is the challenge she faced:
JB 22:03 I've struggled my whole career finding the right balance of work that fills my soul and work that is steady, reliable and offers a comfortable living. I once worked at an agency with purpose-driven clients aligned with my interests, but it meant many years of being underpaid and overworked. I left that full-time stable salaried job to build my own company – and while it was successful and extremely fulfilling in many ways, I saw the flip side… Then the pandemic forced me to cease operations. Having a mortgage to pay and two kids during a seemingly never-ending pandemic, I needed to return to work and frankly, after two years running my own company, a 9 to 5 job where I could simply clock in and out suddenly became more appealing.
I accepted a position at a global consultancy that pays a very comfortable salary (a place that I long dreamed of working for), but find myself not creatively or emotionally fulfilled by the work, often in stressful team environments and sometimes questionable ethical dilemmas—not to mention, also biding my time until it's my turn in the next round of mass layoffs. It is the definition of working for corporate America, so I've learned my lesson that pursuing what I'm passionate about *at* work often leads to minimal impact, dead ends, and disappointment.
I find that working on side hustle passion side projects becomes essential when I’m not creatively fulfilled at my job, and I’ve found ways to do this while in my current role, but it can be exhausting… especially as a parent. I always have ideas for creative, self-driven projects, but I'm not sure if I have the energy to pursue them full time again… I've debated if this is the moment to transition to another job, or for a career pivot to pursue more fulfilling, mission-driven work with nonprofits as an independent consultant. I'm afraid to make this leap (again!) and torn between what feels like the sensible, responsible thing to do…and something that feels exciting and full of potential, but likely a big lifestyle/income shift….
Recognizing there are benefits *and* challenges to both paths, how do you decide which is a healthier or more potentially harmful path? Personally and professionally. And when do you decide to just burn it *all* down and instead just go open a juice bar on some remote island far, far away?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 24:05 Opening a juice bar on a remote island does sound pretty good some days, doesn't it?
Jen Dionisio 24:10 It sure does. Sara, I don't know when we're bringing that into our business model, but I'm ready.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 24:16 Yeah, I'm a little worried about the financial sustainability of it, but it does sound nice. Okay. Anyway, did we tell JB to go for it?
Jen Dionisio 24:24 No, but I actually think your suggestions were even better than that. So here is where you began:
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 24:30 My answer to that is that yeah, I think it is possible to get at least some level of all of those things at the same time, but it's going to be imperfect. You're not going to necessarily get, you know, the full perfect 100% on each of those at once. And that's just because there is a lot of compromise within the system that we all live in. I mean, working and living under capitalism means that we do have to think about, "Well, how am I going to take care of myself? And how am I going to get my health care? And how am I going to get my housing?"
Jen Dionisio 25:00 Does that advice still resonate with you, Sara?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 25:03 Yeah. I mean capitalism is still capitalisming. But I think even more than that, I really do believe in the power of accepting that trade-offs are a fact of life. We're making them constantly, and I think sometimes they just kind of go unacknowledged. And I think it's really healthy to take a look at, "What are the real trade-offs in front of me?" You're not going to come up with perfect answers, like you're not going to suddenly be able to have it all without giving anything up. But I think that once you start being more conscious of what those trade-offs are, what are you choosing? Why are you choosing it? Are you choosing it out of a place of integrity? Are you choosing it out of a place of fear? You know, when you do that, that really helps us get to a place where, I think we can just feel more present in our lives and better about the decisions that we're making, and sort of more accepting of whatever that holds for us.
Jen Dionisio 25:53 Speaking of that, you know, you gave JB some really helpful guidance on how to start parsing out what exactly those trade-offs and compromises might be. So let me play a clip of that:
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 26:05 I think some of the trade-offs they might want to think about are really around, the obvious one is income. But then also things like your kind of time, or energy, or stress levels. Your sense of satisfaction, or growth, or fulfillment. And then maybe also the impact on the world that you have and your sense of doing what's right or not. When you think about those different factors, instead of thinking of like maximizing them, because I think it's where we oftentimes go is like, "I want to have the most impact, or I want to have like the most financial stability," what I would actually encourage both Jay and JB to think about is: "What are my minimum needs for each of these things?"
Jen Dionisio 26:46 I really love how you suggested that she update her definition of success to something that she has more control over and that she actually spends some time really sitting in the vision of that success and like believing that it's feasible to pursue her interests and passions without going completely broke or ending up in financial ruin. Because it's so easy for all of us to just shut down those ideas as impossible without actually enjoying imagining what it could look like and getting ideas from that.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 27:21 Yeah, I think we miss out on a lot of potential paths or a lot of different ways we might get closer to our goals because we shut them down so soon as being impossible or unrealistic. So what did JB end up doing?
Jen Dionisio 27:34 JB did not open a juice bar, but to the point that so called "stable, safe employment" has its own risks, JB actually shared that she and all of her fellow researchers were laid off right after this episode aired.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 27:50 I am so sick of these layoffs, Jen.
Jen Dionisio 27:52 I know. I was thinking about this today, and it's like after all that everyone has been through collectively over the past few years, for like people in design and tech, it almost feels like these layoffs are like another pandemic sweeping through.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 28:08 Yep.
Jen Dionisio 28:09 But your recommendations to JB, I think, were still really relevant, even with this unexpected twist in their employment. And so here's what JB shared about her focus after the layoff:
JB 28:21 All the good advice around trade offs, moral decisions, non-negotiables and minimums went out the window and instead forced me to focus more on the thoughts around pursuing self-driven work that's meaningful, trading financial comfort and stability for more pride in my work, and believing it is possible.
When I got laid off, I was actually on leave for a book tour traveling across WA and MT with my family for a month—and having all kinds of ideas for growing my passion project. When I got the call about the layoffs, I was about to give a talk in front of this gorgeous stone fireplace in a historic lodge in Montana, and it felt obvious and freeing knowing that I had to pursue the ideas that had led me exactly to where I was at that moment. It was clear to me that corporate America doesn't care about me, so why care about it?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 29:08 Let me just underline that: "Corporate America doesn't care about me, so why care about it?" Yes, JB. I mean, look, corporations cannot care. The people working in them can, and some of them do. But a company's not a person, it doesn't have feelings, and it's not capable of love, so give your love to people, not companies, folks. It's a hard lesson to learn, but I hope more of us are learning it. Anyway, Jen, what else did JB share? What are they doing now?
Jen Dionisio 29:36 Well, I think you're gonna love this update. So here is what JB is up to:
JB 29:41 I've spent the last year traveling around the country, applying my research experience and skills to a completely different purpose, and working on six new books that will come out in the next year! Did it bring me income or financial security? No. Have I created something that I'm extremely proud of and believe could bring income eventually and/or the next opportunity? Absolutely! Do I know what's next? Absolutely not! But I do think that when you believe in what you're doing, and you can find other people who do too, it's a worthwhile pursuit and a risk worth taking.
Ironically, as the passion project work is wrapping up, I'm in a similar place as I was when I first shared my question in regards to what's next and which direction to go.... but this time on the other side (of Corporate America). I think having taken this leap has better positioned me to think about the tradeoffs and benefits.... like, I desperately miss working with other people! And having the ability to clock in and out of my work day. I don't know what is next but I'm excited for it, nonetheless!
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 30:42 JB, what a cool year. Like, maybe it didn't maximize your 401K, but it sounds unforgettable. And I'm just like, really glad you gave yourself permission to go for it and not to just, I don't know, go into panic mode, hitting the job market, dealing with the sort of like endless rejections there, because that sounds like a pretty cool year, cooler than opening a juice bar, frankly. And you know? JB, it sounds like whatever you do next, you're gonna do it with so much more self-trust. And I think that's always worthwhile.
Jen Dionisio 31:15 Agreed. JB, we are so excited to hear what comes next for you, and on your next book tour, send us some postcards.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 31:27 Okay, Jen, we have one more update today. Are you ready for it?
Jen Dionisio 31:30 Yes. Who are we revisiting now?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 31:33 Do you remember our pal Capitalism Sucks?
Jen Dionisio 31:36 Oh, I do.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 31:37 We heard from them in episode eight: "Why you gotta be so rude?" Here's what they originally submitted:
CS 31:42 I was laid off in December and I have yet to hear from my manager, someone that after almost two years I considered a mentor and a good friend. The last interaction I had with him was a very short Zoom where he read an HR-prescribed layoff script, and that was it…I really liked my job and was considered the “design mom,” if that's any indication of how much I looked out for and cared for my team. I helped hire and train more than 5 designers. Needless to say it's destroyed my trust and confidence, and it's taken me a while to be ok. Is this normal? Am I crazy for at least expecting a text from him saying that really sucked—I appreciate you or whatever. Why does capitalism suck so much?
Jen Dionisio 32:25 This one really hurt my heart real badly when we first heard it. I was hoping so much that there was a logical explanation for her boss's silence, and that she'd learned exactly what that was so that CS didn't have to fill in the blanks with all of her biggest fears.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 32:45 Wouldn't that be nice if people always fully explained themselves in a timely fashion, and we didn't have to wonder?
Jen Dionisio 32:50 Yeah, because, you know what? We fill in the blanks with some really dark stuff.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 32:54 Right. And that's one of the things that you kind of touched on when you first answered this question. You know, one of the things you told CS was that there are a lot of reasons that their boss might have done this, and most of them actually don't have a lot to do with CS. Like the boss might have been feeling guilt or shame. They might have been scared to reach out. They might be in their own overwhelm. Maybe they're just not very good at handling things. And so Jen, you know, you really encouraged CS to look at where they might be over-personalizing this situation. And it turns out that's something CS has been really working on over the past year:
CS 33:27 I never heard from my manager in my previous role, not surprising. Since I wrote in regarding my previous dilemma, [the change in] how I view work and the amount of energy I give it is significant... I read Work Won't Love You Back by Sarah Jaffe, and had a real come-to-Jesus moment about how much of a sense of self-worth I get from my job. But what happens when that job disappears? Will I be one of those people who retires and dies a few weeks later because all I know how to do is work? I don't want that for me, or for anyone I love! At present, I'm doing my job the best I can, continuing to care for my co-workers as the humans that they are (deserving of love and care), but trying hard not to let too much get under my skin.
Jen Dionisio 34:10 Work Won't Love You Back. That book is fantastic. These questions that CS poses are so important to answer, even if they might feel a little morbid to sit with at first. But it sounds like CS has had a similar shift to Love It or Leave It, and is really focusing on the things at work that they like, like caring for their colleagues. That is a source of meaning and purpose that can be put in place anywhere. Like, even if this job disappeared tomorrow, you can pick up that and apply it to any number of situations at work or outside of work. I love that it's letting CS focus on things that actually make her feel proud and fulfilled.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 34:53 Yeah. I mean, caring about your coworkers as humans is always worthwhile. You know, sometimes I think that when we start distancing from companies and we're like, "I don't care about corporations anymore," sometimes I see people distance themselves from their colleagues and really act as if the people they work with aren't deserving of that respect, that care, that attention. But they are. Like, those are human beings, you know? And I think that it really helps us build healthier lives and communities when we can treat our colleagues like humans. And that's also where solidarity comes from. If you want to talk about pulling your colleagues together to unionize or to have any other kind of collective effort to maybe get better conditions, that only happens when you really see the people that you work with as people. And so kudos, CS. What a great shift for you.
Jen Dionisio 35:41 Sara, what else is new with CS? Did they give us any other details?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 35:45 After their layoff, they went through a brutal job hunt, which I know a lot of listeners can relate to right now, but they eventually did find a new full time role. That role has some issues. The new companies had layoffs too. Their work isn't quite what they'd hoped it would be, but things are looking up:
CS 36:02 I feel fortunate that while my last interview cycle was grueling - I did develop some new and wonderful contacts that have since reached out and re-offered me a position that I previously declined due to the timing being off. I'm nervous about giving my notice to my manager, someone I believe is a good person but a product of her circumstances, and I know in the end, she won't be able to protect my job. Old me would have stuck around due to loyalty, new me will be leaving because I enjoy having a job and being able to pay my bills (plus, I have hope after a positive interview experience that this will be a good fit for me).
Jen Dionisio 36:38 Oh, what a revelation. You know, I love that new CS is identifying really different priorities than old CS, and that those priorities take into account what CS wants and needs in addition to what the people around her needs, and that her priorities aren't getting shoved aside for the sake of these other ones. And CS, what I've heard in the things that you've shared is that this shift doesn't mean that you've like lost any of your empathy. You're able to appreciate that your manager is doing the best they can.
But that realization isn't overriding the part of you that knows it needs real, tangible things like security and a paycheck, that might mean, yeah, you might look for a new job if things are feeling uncertain where you are right now, even if people really need you. Kudos to you for extending the empathy that you have to yourself. And I'll say, you know, the nervousness that you're feeling is totally normal. And maybe something you could try is imagining a third version of yourself, like future CS, whenever these like feelings start to come up. What would better set up that version of you for success? Is it looking out for your manager's best interests or looking out for your own? I'm gonna guess that it's gonna be like 99.9% the latter.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 38:06 You know, on that note, I want to share the end of what CS wrote to us, because I think they really wrote it to all of you listeners out there, and it is beautiful:
CS 38:14 Don't give all your best energy to work! Save some of that light for other parts of your life, because hopefully, we won't have to work forever - and we want things to fall back on like community and rich relationships after we're done surviving the capitalist machine we live in.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 38:30 Amen to that. And Jen, I think that's precisely where we should end today's show.
Jen Dionisio 38:35 Agreed.
Jen Dionisio 38:36 That's it for this week's episode. Per My Last Email is a production of Active Voice. Check us out at https://www.activevoicehq.com/, and get all the past episodes, show notes, and full transcripts at https://pmleshow.com/. This episode was produced by Emily Duncan. Our theme music is “[I'm A] Modern Woman” by Maria T. You can buy her album at https://thisismariat.bandcamp.com/. Big, big thank yous to Deeply Unfair, Love it Or Leave It, Juice Bar, and Capitalism Sucks for submitting their updates for today’s show. And thank you all for listening in. If you've got a work dilemma eating away at you, send it over to us. Head to https://pmleshow.com/ to submit your story. We'll see you next time.