It’s lonely being the only—but guest host Roberta Dombrowski is here to help.
Today, Jen and special guest host Roberta Dombrowski tackle letters from “onlys”: folks who are the only woman, person of color, adoptee, etc. in their workplace. One writer is the only Black leader in their org navigating a disgruntled coworker who wants to take their job (and hands-off management to boot). Another is feeling frozen out by their former boss after a particularly personal-feeling layoff. Listen in as Jen and Roberta lend their coaching skills (and plenty of resources!) to help these listeners combat their “only loneliness.”
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Corrections:
Internal Family Systems was developed by Richard Schwartz. Family systems theory was developed by Murray Bowen.
Roberta Dombrowski 0:00 In order to be enlightened leaders, conscious leaders, it's noticing what triggers us, what gets us into fight, flight, freeze, and not overriding them, which is what most leaders do. They're not even conscious. They don't even do this work.
Jen Dionisio 0:34 All right, Roberta. Headphones working, mic on. We ready to go?
Roberta Dombrowski 0:38 They are, check, check. We're here.
Jen Dionisio 0:40 Excellent, not like last time where I lost my entire audio track.
Roberta Dombrowski 0:45 Oh no.
Jen Dionisio 0:46 Oh well. Hello everyone, and welcome to Per My Last Email, the show about what to do when work gets weird. I'm Jen Dionisio, and today I'm so excited to welcome our special guest host: Roberta Dombrowski.
Roberta Dombrowski 1:01 Hey, Jen, so excited to be here.
Jen Dionisio 1:04 So Roberta, would you tell our listeners a little bit about who you are and what your background is?
Roberta Dombrowski 1:11 Yes, absolutely. So I'm Roberta. I am a leadership and career coach at Learn Mindfully, where I support people who are onlys, these are usually women, leaders, anyone who feels like an only inside of their organization really go from surviving to thriving at work. Outside of that, I am a research leader. I'm currently research partner at Maze.
Jen Dionisio 1:33 So Roberta, the first time we got to formally partner with you was when you held the "Now Is The Time to Consciously Craft Your Career" event with Active Voice last fall, and I know something that you've been really passionate about is mindful leadership, mindful career development. Can you tell us a little bit about like, what you were seeing that made that such a strong interest for you back then?
Roberta Dombrowski 1:57 Yeah, I'd say that my career path has been just windy in general. I've been a learning experience designer, a research leader, a product manager, a coach, and so really, at my core, my path has been completely unique. And I'm not alone in that. Everybody's path is unique. Development is not linear. And so last year, I put together the workbook "Consciously Crafting Your Career Path," and that's when the event came up and everything too. I just fundamentally believe that everyone should have the resources to thrive at work versus survive and just like be grinding away all the time. "Working," "burnout," that's just something I hear all the time.
Jen Dionisio 2:38 Yeah. Well, and I'm curious for you, I think something that you've told me in the past is that your journey to coaching actually came from being coached yourself. What were the things happening for you that made you realize, like, "Oh, I don't want to work like this anymore?"
Roberta Dombrowski 2:53 Yeah, I'd actually say my coaching journey, my journey in general, because when we talk about coaching, it's a transformational tool. It's the same thing as, like, learning and workshops; they're all different tools that you use to transform in some way. And so I actually had my first coach, I always describe her, was during undergrad. I was working in disability services, learning experience design office, back before, like, online learning was a thing. This was like, way back early 2000s, and just the way she carried herself was asking questions, holding space. She just valued my humanness. When I moved into full time work, my first full-time manager literally got his graduate degree in positive psychology.
Jen Dionisio 3:38 Oh amazing.
Roberta Dombrowski 3:38 So that is the coach, if you've ever had one. And so that was another kind of revisiting of coaching, exposure to coaching. When I moved into my executive role in 2021, I was the VP of Research at User Interviews. I have this fundamental belief, I tell people to craft your board or craft your leadership team. Everyone here should have a board or a group of people that they look up to and surround themselves with. And so when I accepted the executive level offer, I was like, "I need a therapist. I got my husband. I want a coach." Like, I put together my package of people that I could go to, and coach was the one thing that I knew I wanted and needed, because I'm someone who has always struggled with imposter syndrome, especially because I'm a woman of color. I'm Hispanic, I was adopted, I have all of this baggage, this narrative that follows me.
My default mindset talk track is always, "You don't know enough. You're not good enough. You have to do more." And so I knew that was going to be the thing that I was going to bump up against in the executive role. I knew it before I got in, and so what an amazing experience, when I was in it. Being in the coaching process with her was just like, I left, and I was like, "All right, now's the time." It's the time to get certified, because I always had this belief I would talk to my husband, of like, "I was born to be a coach." And when I had that third experience, I was like, "All right, it's time. It's time to do it."
Jen Dionisio 5:09 You know, it's so funny how that process happens. I'm the same way, like I worked with a coach, and after, you know, a few months of her helping me through burnout, I just got so interested in her process, and our calls started turning into more of like, "Can you mentor me on how to be a coach?" And it turned into this like, "Oh, I want to pay this forward too, because I found it so valuable for me."
Roberta Dombrowski 5:34 Yes, yes. I definitely identify with that. When I started the coaching journey with my executive coach, it was very much like, "Oh yes, I'm bringing these challenges of being an executive for the first time." And then towards the end, we actually got into debriefing coach training and talking about, like the shifts that were happening for me as well.
Jen Dionisio 5:52 Well, and you were saying earlier that some of the things that drove you to finding a coach and kind of setting up that board of directors were some of these feelings of being an imposter, not good enough, and how a lot of those beliefs tie back to some of the identities that you hold. And I know now that's very much sort of a focus of your coaching practice, which is really kind of helping onlys navigate the working world. So can you tell us a little bit about what you mean by that phrase "onlys" and what really called to you about doing that work?
Roberta Dombrowski 6:25 Yeah, as a coach, I have a coach. I have a business coach. I have a coach, like I got, I got a lot of people on my crew. And so I was doing the deep inner work of what are the problems I want to solve with coaching. Who do I want to work with? And a lot of that digging is the delayering of your own experiences. And it was through the conversations with my business coach, I was just like, you know, here's everything, here's all the intersectional identities that I bring. I am a transracial adoptee. I'm adopted. I'm a BIPOC woman. I'm a woman in the workplace. I'm a design leader. I have started teams from scratch three times. All of those things.
And the binding force between them, or the patterns, because I'm a researcher too, is the feeling of onlyness. It's the feeling of I've always been in the room, and I've been the person championing something, feeling a certain way. It is the loneliness or only, and it relates so much to inclusive leadership, belonging, when we talk about "belonging" in the workplace or engagement in the workplace. And I was so close to those themes because they were my own experiences. I couldn't see it. Like it took the conversation and like, being able to pull it out, and when it did come out, I was like, "Oh my gosh, that's it. That's who I work with." And so when I say "onlys" people say, "Well, what does that mean?" Like, if you're a woman, if you're neurodivergent, if you are the only person on the team. It is all about intersectionality.
Jen Dionisio 8:01 Yeah, you know, Gallup just put out a new research report last week, and they talked about some of this loneliness piece. I think the number is, like one in five employees consider themselves to be really lonely. But it was interesting to me that they don't actually break down that data, or at least not that I saw, in terms of, like, how does that loneliness distribute across some of these different identities or experiences? Because I suspect those numbers are skewed quite differently depending on who the employee is or what that group is.
Roberta Dombrowski 8:34 Oh, absolutely. And like, my nerdy side, my researcher side, is like, "Oh, I want to run a research study on this." And I know I will at some point in the future, and assessments and all that stuff, like I have lots of big dreams, because I think it really is so pervasive. I'm sure if you talk to anybody, they have felt lonely at work or lonely at some point in their life. It's a feeling. Everyone has experienced it.
Jen Dionisio 9:01 And apart from that loneliness, I feel like there's this mix of sort of like external pressures and internal pressures that come to people who are like the "only" in the room for whatever reason. Like, what are you kind of seeing the biggest challenges that onlys are having to address?
Roberta Dombrowski 9:17 Yeah, and I think this is pervasive, whether you are the only person of color, women, neurodivergent, all of these things. These patterns and themes that I've noticed have come up. On a systemic level, it's typically there's no support. You're the only person, and so you're kind of the odd person out, so to speak. It could be microaggressions. It could be unconscious bias or implicit bias, just that the organization or other people have that they're not even conscious of. It's the not being listened to, the spoken over, all of these different things on a systemic level.
On the personal level, the way that that impacts the individual the leader, is that it shows up as imposter syndrome, second guessing yourself, mindset, "Do I know enough? Am I performing well enough?" Communication challenges. If someone's not listening to you like your leader, or they don't see the value, how do you communicate with them? How do you collaborate? Do they value your work? And so there's this visual that I use a lot, is that like systemic, it's everything outside of you, and it's like a pressure that ends up turning internal, and so it ends up like it's this big mush of fog and like, rolling around, and it can get really heavy. It's almost like shame. It's like the feeling of only can bring shame because of the lack of support. And the antidote to shame is collaboration, community.
Jen Dionisio 10:40 Yeah, well, and I feel like with some of that othering behavior that becomes so systemic, yeah, it cuts us off from being able to create those relationships that make us feel less alone, that make us feel like we belong. You know, even thinking of sort of the like levels of safety within a group, like that, sort of base foundational level that you must address before you can move up the chain, is like, "Am I respected and valued for who I am?"
Roberta Dombrowski 11:06 Yeah, one of the activities that we walked through during that event that we did, and one thing that I talk a lot about with clients, is, what are your needs at work? And so there's Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, and then there's also a model where you're looking at your needs and how they apply to work needs, and at the baseline, it's things like, can you afford to live somewhere? And then there's psychological safety. There's belonging. Do I feel connected? And I think that like on a just world level, we've gone through so much. There's 2020. There is transition to remote work. There is uprising. There's wars. All of these things that also create a sense of separation rather than connection and belonging. And so it's almost like these things are exacerbated or double clicked on at work as well.
Jen Dionisio 11:55 Well, speaking to that theme of separation, I think what you're going to see in some of the dilemmas that we are going to cover today, are people very much experiencing the pain of that, of feeling other, either because of who they are or the situation that they find themselves in. And so I'd love to know, are you ready to start answering some of our listener questions?
Roberta Dombrowski 12:19 Yes, yes. Let's dive in.
Jen Dionisio 12:25 Our first dilemma comes from a person who's really struggling with a particularly nasty and diminishing coworker.
TL 12:34 A woman in my department I don't manage disparaged my team's work in a meeting with her peers and manager. This is the culmination of a lot of nastiness from her since I was promoted. She was not considered for the position but believes she should be a manager. Her manager and mine seem to think just sitting down together will solve this. I believe the time for that was 18 months ago when the undermining and lack of professional, collegial behavior hit its first peak. I'm also the only Black leader so there's a race element that can't be discounted. How do I get the other leadership in my department—her manager and mine—to take this seriously?
Jen Dionisio 13:13 Eighteen months, Roberta.
Roberta Dombrowski 13:15 Yep, yeah, that's tough. I've been hearing similar with leaders lately. It's the pervasive, ongoing background humming challenges. Yeah, that's tough.
Jen Dionisio 13:26 Well, let's call this person TL for "too little" and "too late," and that seems to be how TL is feeling right now in this situation. So if they were your client and kind of came to you with this issue, where would you start as their coach?
Roberta Dombrowski 13:43 I would start to tease things apart first. Typically, when I work with people, a lot of my coaching work focuses first on emotions and feeling emotions, especially since this has been so long, 18 months of interactions that haven't been positive. I'm sure there is a lot of the energy, there's a lot of things there. And so I would just sit down and ask them, like, "How are you feeling?" Like, "Let's name it. What's here? As we're talking about it, do you feel it anywhere in the body? What does that mean? What's the feeling there?" To kind of just like, process some of the emotions, because what you resist persists and it hangs around there.
Then from there, my framework usually is very like, left brain, right brain, being and doing. So "being" is the emotion, the feeling. Then I would move more into, like, the analytical side of just like, "Alright, let's break this down." One framework I love using is SBI, it's Situation, Behavior, Impact. And so I love to break down, "Okay, what happened? What was the challenge here for you?" I usually never dig into like, why did it happen? But what was the action that happened and what caused that to be challenging? Why is that activating for you? And it removes a lot of the heaviness from it, of the emotion, the sometimes name calling that happens in workplaces and in relationship. And then I think based off of that, it could go a few directions, and focusing on your response to it, especially in coaching, it's a one-to-one experience.
We can't control this nastiness, this other person, the woman, but how do you want to show up? What are you looking for from your manager, from the other leader? How do you want them to respond? And one model that I also use is Know, Do, Feel. It's like a quick needs assessment of like, what do you want people to know, do, and feel about this issue or thing? And then, usually you will pull out kind of what you're hoping from it, which then can inform when you go back to leadership. It literally might be just going to them saying, "Hey, I don't feel supported. Here's what I brought. Here's the impact of what it's causing for me in the business. Here's where I need your help." And that's very direct. It's a very direct way of speaking, but that's usually what we end up getting to at the end.
Jen Dionisio 16:14 Yeah, I love that. It's sort of working backwards from this ideal state. It's not like is it fair or reasonable? Or, you know, "What's my small vision of what I can expect to get out of this person?" It's more like, "No, what do I need and how then do I work backwards to make that happen?"
Roberta Dombrowski 16:32 Yeah, there's this really lovely model that's called the Drama Triangle. And so usually, when we're in relationship to people, and it's not going well, we're usually oscillating between these different roles of like hero, villain, victim. A lot of the times in the workplace, when you're hearing these stories of things that have happened, it can turn almost into blaming of like, "They did this. They're doing this." And then it devolves to being not productive. And the flip side of that is like an empowerment triangle, which is another model where you're digging into it, you're feeling the emotion, but you're removing it, and you're like, "All right, how do I want to show up? How do I want to respond? What's the truth here?" Usually there's three sides: there's your side, the other person, and then the truth.
Jen Dionisio 17:15 Yeah, hearing this dilemma, I could feel so much within their message this, like, common fear, I would imagine, of any of us who have been an only in a situation like, of not being taken seriously, or being viewed as, like, making trouble, or blowing things out of proportion. How have you kind of seen people successfully address this or like, what are the consequences if you just sit on it and hold it inside?
Roberta Dombrowski 17:42 The consequences of holding it inside is resentment, anger, all of that. There's this really lovely book that I love: it's The Language Of Emotions. It actually breaks down emotions that you feel and why they come up for certain things. And usually anger is an emotion because your boundary has been violated. And 18 months of being treated some way that's going to be usually an anger response, rightly so, justified. And so it's really digging into what is this emotion? How am I feeling? And so it's the anger from you; that's what's at risk. I mean, on a personal side, I have been in this situation. Like, I have surfaced things, especially as a Research Leader, I am researching things. I find problems. Like, it's literally I'm paid to find problems, or, "opportunities," opportunities for being better. And the business may or may not want to hear it.
What happens when you do surface that is that people will sometimes, depending on how open the organization is to learning and growth, if they are closed to that, then they see it as an attack. I always describe organizations as organisms. It's an invader, and so the organization is going to throw out antibodies. It's going to try and protect. It will try to silence you. It'll try to put you as the only person, the odd person out. I have felt that so frequently. What I tell to people is, you know, this is what I recommended earlier of the Situation, Behavior, Impact leading, that's one angle, that's an immediate. But if it is a systemic issue, take a look and say, "What are the characteristics of the environment that I operate in?"
Jen Dionisio 19:32 Yeah.
Roberta Dombrowski 19:33 "Is this healthy for me to be in? Do I need to go to a different organization, a different role, something else? What do I need?" That is something that I have worked with many people on, and I've done work on as well.
Jen Dionisio 19:45 It's funny, you mentioned that because I was just talking to a client today who got a lot of feedback about how she was very negative, and always pointing out problems, and how she needed to be more positive. And it really did a number on how she was, like, perceiving herself. And now she's in a new company where, from the CEO on down, there is very much this much more sort of direct feedback style, a lot of collective embrace of like, discussing realistically, like, "Here's where we're not great," versus like, "Here's where we are." And being in that new environment that allows those traits that were viewed at this old place as bad or negative, as being viewed as like, positive and helpful, has had such a change.
Roberta Dombrowski 20:35 Wild, wild. I actually personally experienced this this week, where it was the same, where I've been in organizations in the past, where my otherness, or onlyness, is seen as a disruption, it's seen as a negative. And then you meet someone else, and it is seen as a light. It's seen as a positive. It's seen as a strength. And what a shift. So that's why I always encourage people don't isolate yourself in your current environment or make your environment your end all, be all. Your current role is likely just one path on the journey. So like, go out, network, meet people, be in the community, because it will shift. You may notice. You may tell people this story too, and other people will be like, "What? You don't deserve that. You're way better than that." And it's just that gentle push that you need to be able to shift the perspective and realize it's not you, go look for something else if that's what you're looking for.
Jen Dionisio 21:36 So it sounds like some pretty sage wisdom from you where there is trying to address the situation, but also kind of recognizing that there is a chance that this just might not be a good environment for you, especially if the woman who is causing some of these issues doesn't change or isn't moving to a new team or finding new employment somewhere else. But when you have seen positive change come out of this kind of conversation, what tend to be the elements there?
Roberta Dombrowski 22:07 That's a great question. Depending on the organization's receptiveness to it, the positive change often when we start to break down in the immediate, the Situation, Task, Behavior, looking at your response, how do you want to respond? The result of that is empowerment. It is speaking your voice rather than getting resentful or upset. It is feeling empowered. Based off of that, once you go and you share, whether the organization is receptive or not receptive, it's either going to go one or two ways. It's going to be you're going to clam shut because they're not receptive, or something gets done and you're going to blossom. I encourage you, don't clam shut.
The question then is, "Do I want to continue investing time in trying to get the organization to change? Or do I want to take my brilliance, my humanness, and all that I am and go somewhere else and look for something else?" It's a mindset shift. Really this coaching scenario is just a shift of something happening to you, of being treated a certain way, of being on the receiving end, to now you're being proactive of, "How do I want to be treated? What's the boundaries that I'm setting? How am I teaching other people in the workplace that this is not okay, and if they cross this any longer, then I'm gone?"
Jen Dionisio 23:28 Yeah, I realize in our industry environment right now that moving on might not be able to happen very quickly. So if TL is to have this conversation and finds that it's not able to get their needs met, what are some ways that they might be able to kind of take care of themselves as they're waiting to move on?
Roberta Dombrowski 23:48 Boundaries. Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. Yeah, one of my favorite books, Set Boundaries, Find Peace is like—
Jen Dionisio 23:54 Oh I love that book.
Roberta Dombrowski 23:55 Yeah, it's great. Usually, what ends up happening is, you're in this environment, and it's like the grieving process, almost. Of like grieving that you still have to be there, processing that things aren't going to change. And then you get to a state when you can put together an action plan. The action plan might be like, "All right, I need to stay at this job for the next few months, or maybe the market gets better. Okay, what's my exit strategy?" And the exit strategy, maybe a year long. It may be a few months or whatever, but it's what do you need to I would say survive versus thrive in the workplace, it may be survive for the time being, depending on your context.
And some of that might be like, "I'm only going to work this many hours. I'm not going to engage with this person if they're being rude to me." It's putting up boundaries, protecting yourself if the organization is not doing its job. In coaching, we always say it's a partnership. And so when I work with clients, I lean in 100%, they lean in 100%. It's the same thing, ideally, with a partnership with the business that you are reporting to, they need to hold up their end of the bargain. And you're holding up your end of the bargain in terms of outcomes and impact to the business. Maybe you have a case for employment law discrimination or harassment. That's then a question of "Do I want to pursue this or not?" If not, then it is kind of like, "What elements am I putting in place to protect myself?"
Jen Dionisio 25:20 Yeah, that makes so much sense. I know TL can't go back in time to eighteen months earlier, sixteen months earlier and speak up sooner. But if somebody is to kind of find themselves in this situation where somebody's bad behavior is really having such an impact on them and their reputation and how they feel about work, what are some things you can do when you start to notice that creeping in?
Roberta Dombrowski 25:47 I'm huge into mindfulness. I'm a mindfulness teacher. I'm a practitioner. So I like to do clearing work a lot. So like, I'll write letters. I will burn it. A ritual to have some sense of closure. There's also something that's called a cord-cutting meditation where you can actually meditate on difficult relationships and visualize you're attached to this person by a cord, and then you go in and cut it. Cuz that's what it is. When you get into this dynamic with someone, there is something there. There's energy there. There's an attachment there in some way, and sometimes it's just severing that in some way. So I'm doing that in the background in my personal time. I encourage it with other people.
The other thing that I do share with people, once you do the clearing, is feel free to sit down with them. If something pops up again, bring it up with them in the moment with the specific example. And when you have that conversation, it's very important to come in a positive way of like, "Hey, I know we've had this tension." Acknowledge it. "Here's the impact it's had. Here's an example. I would love to move forward. Is this the same way you've been feeling? How might we solve it?" To see if there's a dialogue and a conversation to be had. If not, then maybe it's a separating and a if you stay in the organization, move to a different team, you're on two different projects or something if it needs to come to that.
Jen Dionisio 27:14 Yeah, I like that that shows it's not just stay or go. There are a few other options in that mix that can be tried, too. Which is also making me think of a question I wanted to ask you: you know, I know it's not TL's manager who wrote in today, and so frequently, we wish it was people's managers writing in instead of the people themselves. But it sounds like they haven't been very proactive in this situation and haven't been a great support to TL. What would your recommendation be to a manager who is hearing this kind of feedback or concern from an employee?
Roberta Dombrowski 27:53 This is always hard because I've had managers like this as well. I'd say if you're a manager and you have an employee coming to you with an issue, the first response that you have should not be speaking and saying, "It's not that big of a deal. Don't think that way. Don't have that reaction." Your first response should always be to listen and then to say, "What can I do to help?" Anything else is a diminishing, it's gonna make the person rethink that something's not as serious as it's happening. It's invalidating in some way. When you actually say "It's not that bad, it's not this, it's not that," you are having your own personal judgment. It is your own experience. It is your own bias to it. I often tell leaders that a leader's response, your manager's response to something says more about them than it does to you.
Jen Dionisio 28:45 I imagine that's not always easy to fully believe and internalize, but it is so true. It's like, if we can just reinforce that to people—
Roberta Dombrowski 28:53 So true, so true. And I really, really try to emphasize in my practice with people the intentionality. Usually it's the slowing down. So, that's how you get intentional is the slowing down for things. So, as a manager, it is listen, silence, sometimes even, "Count to five before you respond. One, two, three, four, five." Process. And then react and respond. And sometimes, it may just be, "Thank you that you told me that in that call. How can I support you? I'm gonna go back and come back with some recommended steps. Sometimes you don't even need to respond in the session with the person live. So it's really about being more intentional rather than reactive.
Jen Dionisio 29:41 I feel like this is such a wealth of ideas and tools for TL. So, before we wrap up your response to this dilemma, is there anything else that you feel like TL should be doing, or thinking, or believing as they navigate through what they're gonna do next?
Roberta Dombrowski 30:01 I'd say you're not alone in your own experience. Connect with other people, could be inside of work, outside of work, someone that you trust, that has your back, usually a best friend, maybe a partner. And then focus on yourself. I always ask people like, "What would you think about this in three months, three years?" Whatever it might be, take some of the dissolution away, where maybe this won't be as big in the big scheme of things, in terms of your life purpose and what you're really aiming for, but know that in this moment it is really real. Your feelings are valid, and you are what matters, not the leader, the other person, the support that they may not be giving you.
Jen Dionisio 30:43 And a reminder too, that like, TL, that is not because of you if that is the way that they're responding.
Roberta Dombrowski 30:50 Yeah, it shows their emotional immaturity more than anything.
Jen Dionisio 30:53 Well, TL, thank you so much for writing in, and please keep us posted on how this plays out. We'd love to help you through whenever transition comes from this.
Emily Duncan 31:03 Hi folks, Emily here. If you missed the Manager's Playbook back in May, I have good news. We're running it again in August. The Manager's Playbook is a workshop series designed for leaders who want to have better relationships with their team members, peers, and partners. You know, the folks you spend all day with, but can struggle to understand.
You'll learn coaching and communication skills that will help you tackle all the hard conversations you dread, from giving feedback to resolving conflict. The Manager's Playbook takes place over the course of three weeks, with two workshops and a one-on-one coaching session with Jen or Sara. We kick off on August 16, and we'd love to see you there. Go to https://www.activevoicehq.com/managers-playbook to learn more about the program. Bring your colleagues. There's a team discount for groups of three or more.
Jen Dionisio 31:52 Are you ready for our next dilemma?
Roberta Dombrowski 31:54 I am.
Jen Dionisio 31:55 So this person's onlyness is situational, and they're noticing that they're being treated quite a bit differently than other people on their team.
AM 32:05
I worked as lead Content Strategist for 1.5 years—embedded in a team of 35 UX designers, researchers and content designers. I experienced a very abrupt layoff. In earlier cycles of layoffs, team members were given 2 weeks notice and a farewell session with the team. In my case, I was laid off that same day and had no chance to say goodbye or wrap up work. My recruiter assures me she has talked with leadership and I did nothing wrong. It was simply part of a restructuring. They went on to hire someone with more experience to oversee a larger area. Meanwhile, I got completely ghosted by most of the team, including my boss.
I’m trying to understand, from a vacuum, why my former boss won't write me a LinkedIn recommendation. I did reach out and request one with some examples of what he might speak to. We used to meet weekly and he always said I was meeting or exceeding expectations. We got along. I thought we had something good. I approached him via LinkedIn once weeks ago and did a friendly follow up there and have gotten no response.
Jen Dionisio 33:07 Oh, it's like your whole concept of what your relationships were like at this organization are being proven to be quite different.
Roberta Dombrowski 33:16 Yeah, and a grieving process from layoffs as well. Because it's a separation, it's an abrupt separation, like a divorce, almost.
Jen Dionisio 33:25 Yeah, so let's call this person AM, for "answer me," and I'd love to throw to you the same question I started with on the last dilemma: if AM was your client and came to you with this, where would you start with them?
Roberta Dombrowski 33:40 Yeah. Again, I would visit like doing and being parts. And so I would first sit with the emotions and processing of what was the feeling of the layoff, being able to process that, grieve that. Then it's a lot of, usually any coaching session starts off with what's the challenge, where would you like to be? And so that's usually how the flow works, and so feeling all the things first, like, let's get that. Let's shake it off. Your feelings are totally valid. It is a grieving process, and just being there for them and listening and holding space, because they're likely feeling very upset, isolated, alone, unsure, scared what to do, especially if it's current. The market conditions, it's not so great right now. So holding space for that.
After that, I would say, what would you want to go from here? What would you like to do? Usually, some type of like reflection on what happened. Are there any lessons from this? What did you learn during your time, experience in the workplace, what would you do differently? And then I would also kind of reiterate this process again, says more about your manager, your former manager, than it does about you. I've been a leader. I've been an executive. They might not actually be able to talk to them or write a reference depending on the type of organization it was. That might be one side, or the manager just might be emotionally immature and not be able to deal with it. That could be the other. So I think holding space for other possibilities as well. I would talk through some of that, "Well, what would you like to happen based off of all of this moving forward?"
Jen Dionisio 35:15 Yeah, I think I can imagine how many stories AM is probably telling themselves about what's happening and why. Like, I came from an organization, too, where I didn't find this out for a few years, but technically, like, we weren't allowed to give each other any sort of LinkedIn endorsements or references. I'm not sure why, but it was part of the rules that we had. But I'm sure you know, in the heat of this sort of, like, feeling of betrayal and grief, the stories aren't gonna be much around the logistics of the organization and more around, like, "What's wrong with me? Like, what did I do wrong here?"
Roberta Dombrowski 35:52 Yeah.
Jen Dionisio 35:53 It sounds like what AM is being told by the recruiter is that there wasn't anything that she did wrong or that she was singled out for. But you know, what she's observing and feeling is very much the opposite of that. And when you find yourself with this sort of competing realities, how do you start teasing those apart to figure out where the truth is?
Roberta Dombrowski 36:19 Sometimes I ask people is, does the truth matter? Does the truth actually matter? Why? Because, likely, what often happens is, they want a reason. They want to know why. And sometimes it happened. What would that change? If the manager did let you go, and there was some, like, backhanded political reason, like all this stuff. What would that change for you? What would be the outcome of it? Would it be helpful? Would it be positive in any way? If the truth is that that was what happened, and he's not allowed to reach out to you and all of that, what would that change too? And so that's usually what's behind it.
And so that's what I try to get into, of well, what's important about that? What's important about finding the truth for you? Because that's the core need that's not being met in some way. And then usually I dig into, how can you meet that need for yourself? Because right now, it might be looking externally through the recommendation or something else, but from the sound of it, it's not going to come externally through the organization. It's not going to come externally through the boss. And so how can you give yourself compassion, give yourself space, give yourself grace to process it and move forward for what you need? Because if we get stuck in the cycle of the what's the truth, the evangelizing, advocating, all of that. that's when we get stuck. We don't process, we don't do the emotional discharge, and then it actually can prevent us from moving forward. What we resist persists.
I'd say to AM is it the manager thing that's the most challenging? Are there other advocates or allies that you had in the organization that you're still talking to? Like, do you have other connections or friends? Maybe they can give you the recommendation. Maybe they could be the person to connect you. But it sounds like the challenge might be the connection with the boss
Jen Dionisio 38:15 That's such an intimate relationship, like, whether it's going well or whether it's not and having such an abrupt cut off, like earlier, you referenced this kind of idea of there being a divorce. When you help people through these kinds of, you know, grieving processes or moving through unexpected transitions, like, what are some of the tools that you recommend for people to find more of that internal healing, as opposed to looking for it outside?
Roberta Dombrowski 38:45 Yeah, again, with the frameworks, what this is really focusing on is Relational Systems Theory, family systems, which starts to come out of I think it's Bessel van der Kolk. He's a psychologist. And the same way that our families our system, so like our mother, father, parents, we have family systems at work. And so at work, our boss, our peers, they may be siblings, our boss may be the parent. Like we can sometimes replay these family dynamics in the workplace.
One thing that I always recommend is like digging into family systems, things like the Drama Triangle can help you start to oscillate of seeing where are you in this to separate it. I get really into "Self-Compassion" by Kristin Neff, a lot of her practices when it comes to layoffs, when it comes to grieving. So she has a lot of different practices. Sometimes it's mindfulness. Sometimes it's writing yourself a letter to process it. Sometimes it's, okay, your friend's in the same situation, what do you tell the friend? Disconnect a little bit. What would you tell your friend or your partner if they were going through the same thing? To detach it a little bit. Also, the process work of where in the body are you feeling it?
All of that helps kind of move through it. And so that's how I also mentioned, like, the doing versus being, the feeling and the shame and the embodiment is that. And then the framework salad I'm talking about is the doing part.
Jen Dionisio 40:12 Yeah, well, and I imagine too, like that sort of being and doing is also going to come into play, as AM is figuring out, like, what's next for them. We've had some previous listeners reach out and say that, you know, having an experience like this has really had them enter this sort of job market feeling incredibly bad about themselves, incredibly mistrustful about people, and that that persists even when they find somewhere new to go. How might AM approach, holding some of this a little bit lightly, so it's not baggage that they're having to kind of carry into their next steps?
Roberta Dombrowski 40:48 So there's some nuance to that question too. Holding it lightly and not being activated, and having like, the negative of the disgruntled employee, of like, "I got laid off. This is what happened. It's horrible. It's going to happen." That's like the the one end. The other end that I really lean towards is after you've processed it all, this is an experience, and now experience has turned into learned wisdom that you then carry with you. So like, I had this I went through a layoff last year. Very abrupt, toxic environment. I took six months to grieve last year when it happened, and that led to me creating the workbook and like connecting to people and spreading my wings. But now later, last year and now when I meet people, the way that I was treated, the dysfunction, the toxicity, all of that is wisdom now that I use so that when I engage in partnerships, because that's what work is, it's relational. It's partnerships. I ask different questions now when I'm applying. I don't hold it against people, but I know what the red flags are now.
Jen Dionisio 42:00 Can you tell us your list?
Roberta Dombrowski 42:02 Oh, I got a long list. I actually have a resource that I share with clients that is like "80+ questions to ask during your job interview," and it's like broken down based off of needs, of what they're looking for. But like right now, I love collaborating with people around coaching with events and stuff like that. And so when I hop on phone calls, one question that I'm having in the back of my head is, are they asking me questions about myself, or are they only talking about themselves? Is it a mutual exchange? How's the energy? Do I hold space for how my body is reacting? Because that's psychological safety.
Your body will process things before it actually hits your brain. These are all things that are on my list now that I would not have had beginning of my career a decade ago. I think about things like outside work because I'm a coach. If a company is like telling me I can't do coaching or I can't teach, I can't facilitate, that's a red flag. I don't want to be anywhere near that organization. I've quit jobs before because they told me that I can't. But it is just a part of who I am, naturally.
Jen Dionisio 43:11 Something you said really, really stood out to me, which is, what does AM do if they don't have that sense yet of what they want, and what their red flags are? Maybe I'm assuming this, but it sounds like they had an experience that they wanted, and that might be part of why this has hurt so much. How do you go about figuring that out when you realize like, "Oh, I need something different than what I had, even though I thought that was what I wanted?"
Roberta Dombrowski 43:38 Yeah, AM, please feel free to give us a call. I would be happy to do coaching, because usually what ends up happening is there's a initial grieving process, and you need time to process. I just mentioned my time last year. I had six months, like, I wasn't thinking about this every single day. I was like doing things like living my life, and there's grieving process, and you need to go through that. It's actually like your brain can't handle the creative thinking about what's next and getting into the problem solving. It's in fight or flight mode. It's in window of tolerance, and so you have to get comfortable and get safe to be able to get back to that spot where you can think about what's next and problem solve and stuff like that.
When you get to that point, when you want a forward look and think about what's next, it's a coach. If you feel like you are doing all of these things that we're talking about, the processing, and you feel still feel stuck, that might be a sign that maybe speak with a therapist, speak with someone else, because there might be something else also that's being triggered within you, or activated within you from a past, maybe an abandonment or something like that. As an adoptee, whenever relationships end or start, I turn inwards. It is, "What did I do wrong?" All of that. So that might be what's surfacing up, which is a sign of something else that might be coming from childhood or other areas too.
Jen Dionisio 45:03 Yeah, that's such a good point. It's like beneath our consciousness, there are all of these memories and activations that are constantly going off that we might not be aware of, are really kind of exacerbating how we're feeling about things.
Roberta Dombrowski 45:18 Yes, absolutely. I'm a huge fan of trauma-informed leadership. A lot of what I do is like somatic work and presence and mindful leadership. But there's this book that's called Heal to Lead, and it's by Kelly Campbell. It just came out earlier this year, and she talks about her journey as a leader. If we think about our journeys in general, healing is always intertwined. Trauma is the act of something disconnected: something happens, something abrupt that made us disconnect from ourselves. Healing is the act of coming home to yourself. As leaders, there is always trauma. There is big T, people say big T, little t. It could be the act of being spoken over in a meeting, getting spoken down to, getting laid off, that is a trauma.
And so when that happens, it can activate trauma from other parts of our lives, younger experiences when we were children, earlier on in our career. And in order to be enlightened leaders, conscious leaders, being fully intentional, it's noticing what triggers us, what gets us into fight, flight, freeze, all of these things, and not overriding them, which is what most leaders do. They're not even conscious. They don't even do this work. But it is processing, pausing, moving forward, looking into other healing modalities. That's like, the juicy spot where, like, coaching and therapy and all of these things come together, which is like, where I've been living my life for the last few years.
Jen Dionisio 46:51 Yeah, it speaks again to that idea of like, we all deserve to have a lot of types of support. Like, that's not a weakness to ask for help, and it's definitely not a weakness to be like, "I need an array of help that can address these very different but interacting parts of my experience that are causing me a lot of pain."
Roberta Dombrowski 47:10 Yes, yes. And I know that the listeners, the people that are writing in are deeply intentional. They care. They're doing the work. The scenarios that we are receiving here are about the leaders who are not doing the work. It's about the passive aggressiveness, the emotional immaturity. They're not showing up in a way. And to me, that shows the areas of opportunity within the greater workplaces, the systems that we operate in that really has the opportunity for growth. That systemic change will happen over time, the more and more leaders like us, like me, you Jen, that are doing the work, slowing down, being intentional, setting boundaries, doing all of these things that make ourselves thrive rather than just survive. It will spread. It's going to take time, but little by little, yeah.
Jen Dionisio 48:01 Yeah. Well, and little by little sounds a little bit like the recovery from grief process that you mentioned. And so thinking about your biggest recommendation for AM as they're moving through that grief and finding themselves on the other side, how do you remind yourself that you will find the other side sometime?
Roberta Dombrowski 48:22 I would leave for AM, has there been a time or experience that you found yourself on the other side before? Because usually what I tell people is, you've been through way more harder things in life. I guarantee it. I guarantee it. And you will get through this as well. It doesn't invalidate the experience, but it's the how do you introduce hopefulness in this really difficult time as well? Because it can be true, those two things can coexist. You can be absolutely grief stricken, upset with this experience, but there can also be hope for the future that you will have a better experience moving forward.
Jen Dionisio 49:02 AM, I hope that amidst this grief, you're able to also grab onto some of these bits of hope that Roberta was mentioning. Thank you so much for reaching out, and we're thinking of you. Oh, Roberta, it's really hard to hear people struggling through these kinds of situations, and I'm so glad that they were able to get the experience of your wisdom and your experience and your many frameworks to help them through these times that they're finding themselves in.
Roberta Dombrowski 49:35 It's always bittersweet for the dilemmas and holding space, but I have really, really enjoyed this conversation and being of service and providing resources for the community.
Jen Dionisio 49:47 Oh, well, I have a feeling we're going to be inviting you back frequently, maybe hopefully soon. But before I let you go, you know, I'd love to know, do you have any sort of parting words of wisdom or advice for any of the other onlys out there who are kind of feeling this loneliness and not sure where to find that belonging and that hope for themselves?
Roberta Dombrowski 50:12 What I always say is, one, you're not alone. You are unique. Your path is unique. You are here for a reason. And two, what I always love to tell people is the things that often make you feel alone or stand out or separate or not belong are the things that are what make you unique and your strengths. It's what makes you stand out, and if you're in an environment that is telling you that those qualities are not great, that says more about the environment than it does of you, because you can go to another environment and it'll be complete opposite.
Jen Dionisio 50:49 Yes, well, Roberta, thank you so much for dialing in today and helping us solve these dilemmas. How can people follow you, continue learning from you? Yeah. Where are you on the internet and in the world?
Roberta Dombrowski 51:03 You can definitely connect with me on LinkedIn. You can also reach out https://learnmindfully.co/. We'll link in the resources. If you're ever interested in speaking or chatting, you want to read some framework salad or blog posts, that's where you can find some resources.
Jen Dionisio 51:19 Fabulous.
Jen Dionisio 51:27
That's it for this week's episode. Per My Last Email is a production of Active Voice check us out at https://www.activevoicehq.com/ and get all the past episodes, show notes, and full transcripts for Per My Last Email at https://pmleshow.com/. This episode was produced by Emily Duncan. Our theme music is "(I'm A) Modern Woman" by Maria T. You can buy her album at https://thisismariat.bandcamp.com/. Thank you to Too Little, Too Late and Answer Me for submitting their stories to today's show. And thank you so much for listening. If you've got a work dilemma eating away at you, send it over to us. Head to https://pmleshow.com/ and submit your story. See you next time.