Everyone’s entitled to their opinions. But what do you do when your reputation doesn't match your reality?
Today’s letter-writers are in their “Reputation” eras…and they’re struggling to move forward with management that has preconceived notions about their performance. One writer is receiving biased feedback from a manager, and oh yeah, they might also be missing out on secret company equity. Another is dealing with the aftermath of being passed up for the role they’ve been acting in for two years. Listen in as Sara and Jen help these letter-writers get a clearer picture of themselves and their needs, so they can step into the roles they really want to fill in their workplaces and in their lives.
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Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:00 Twenty years from now, what do you think is going to be meaningful to you? What does that version of you care about, and what would that person wish that today you had prioritized?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:26 Wow, okay, Jen, it's been a while. You might have to remind me how to do this.
Jen Dionisio 0:31 Well, Sara, part one is that we come up with some very witty banter to open the episode with, and then we try not to feel incredibly awkward the whole time until we get to the "Hello and welcome to Per My Last Email" part.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:46 Oh my gosh. Well, I'm not sure how well we're doing so far, but hello and welcome to Per My Last Email, the show about what to do when work gets weird. I'm Sara Wachter-Boettcher.
Jen Dionisio 0:55 And I'm Jen Dionisio.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:57 Jen, what kind of weird are we talking about today?
Jen Dionisio 0:59 So today we are in our Reputation era.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 1:03 Oh, Jen, I didn't know you were a Swifty.
Jen Dionisio 1:05 Well, I know about three Taylor Swift songs, but I am fully invested in the Swifty discourse online.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 1:14 Wait, which songs do you know?
Jen Dionisio 1:15 I know "Shake It Off," "Look What You Made Me Do...." Okay, that might be the only two I know.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 1:21 Those ones are old too.
Jen Dionisio 1:24 Shut up, Sara.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 1:25 I know a few more than that. I actually like Taylor Swift. I wouldn't say I'm a Swifty. I just feel like that's a level I'm not able to achieve. I enjoy Taylor Swift, though.
What's interesting to me about Taylor Swift is just like how the discourse around her has become so massive, and obviously, I mean, she's a huge star, but like, when you think about her compared to say, Beyonce—Beyonce is very private. Like you don't know a lot about what's going on Beyonce's life, except for the things she wants you to know. And maybe that's true for Taylor, too, but it feels like she's so much more out there, and there's just so much more divisiveness in the discourse? I don't know. It's interesting.
Jen Dionisio 2:02 And it feels like there's so much more public activity that the discourse can hang on, right? I don't know that there's been any big dramatic events since, like, the Beyonce elevator experience, but Taylor Swift seems to have these moments all the time, and so I'm not surprised that she's been very, sort of, active in trying to, like, define her reputation herself—both from people like, I don't know, like, Kanye West telling her that she should not win awards, to, like, the weird fans that kind of put her on a bizarre pedestal where I don't know if that really matches her reality either. It's almost like you don't have to have a bad reputation to feel like it's kind of blocking you from being seen as who you actually are.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 2:50 Yeah, I think that's interesting, especially, I mean, that's gonna be relevant to more than just Taylor Swift, who has such an outsized reputation—positive, negative, depending on who you ask. But I think for all of us, it's like we can so easily get to that place where we are so worried about what other people think about us, and it almost keeps us from thinking about who we really are and how do we want to be.
Jen Dionisio 3:15 And how do we contort ourselves if we start to believe the reputations that we get.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 3:19 Or like, what happens when we focus on the reputation as opposed to focusing on, like, our own behavior, which is different, right? Like, "Am I proud of how I'm being?" versus "How do I think this is going to be perceived?"
Jen Dionisio 3:30 Yeah, well, that's actually kind of the topic for today's episode, which is, like, what do you do when the reputation you've gotten doesn't match your reality? And, like, what can you personally do to kind of reclaim that or shift that? So are you ready to help our listeners kind of break out of some of these traps that they're finding themselves in?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 3:50 I am.
Jen Dionisio 3:55 So our first dilemma comes from a person who's working in tech and their reputation is being damaged by their own manager. Great. So let's hear it.
FR 4:03 I feel like my current manager is holding me back because they have a frozen, outdated view of my work and my performance. A few years ago, they gave me anonymous peer feedback about my communication skills that were gendered-biased and dug-in—hard—when I pushed back. We had several conversations about it and I involved HR after that feedback came up again in my annual review, affecting my merit raise that year.
My complaints went nowhere, but not long after I was reassigned to another manager without warning. However, we did a re-org at the beginning of the year and I am now reporting to them again. My first quarterly review reads like a repeat of the last one I had with them when it comes to communication and collaboration—I believe some of the feedback phrases are identical. It's frustrating because they've never been able to supply valid specific examples of the issues they supposedly see. The one specific example they gave me last time they were my manager was totally invalid—I went to the teammate mentioned and discussed it with them and they had no issues with how I had communicated with them, yet nothing I do seems to change my manager’s opinion of me.
The issues with their feedback were confirmed recently when I did a training where I had to get them and anonymous peers to provide feedback on me. For communication and collaboration, their scores were 30-50 points below my peers' scores.
I feel like I can't trust them and I don't know how to talk to them and this is affecting both my mental health and my compensation. I've been pushing for a market-rate increase for about 2 years and every time I talk to them about it, they push the bar higher for what I need to provide or do to get it. They don't have my back. Even worse, I recently learned that my company has a super secret equity scheme and that I'm the only senior member of my team hired when I was and promoted when I was who didn't receive any. There's rumors the company might be sold in the next year and my peer told me his equity could be worth up to 1/2 million dollars. I'm just full of rage and don't know how to move forward. I like the people I work with and my projects, but I don't know how to talk to this manager and there's no one else I could report to at the moment.
How do I have this conversation in a way that might change the results? How do I get my manager to change their view of me? Or are both a lost cause?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 6:13 There is a lot going on in here, Jen.
Jen Dionisio 6:15 Yeah, so let's call this person FR for "full of rage," which I think I would be feeling too if I found out there's all this secret maneuvering happening behind the scenes without my knowing. Like, Sara, do we have a secret equity scheme that I'm not aware of?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 6:31 No.
Jen Dionisio 6:31 Good. But before we dive into how FR might have this conversation about equity and compensation, why don't we start with their second question, which is like, "How do I get my manager to change their view of me?"
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 6:45 Yeah, that is a great place to start. I honed in on that as well, because I can see how much FR wants to make their manager change their mind. And I would want that too. But Jen, I think you might know where I'm going with this. Unfortunately, there's nothing that I can tell FR that is going to ensure that their boss changes their mind about them, and that is a hard pill to swallow, especially when it feels like there's so much money on the table. But I want to start with that reality for a reason, FR, because as much as it might not feel good to have your manager think negative things about you, I might suggest you even try to let go of changing their mind as a goal, because ultimately, what's in their heart? That's kind of their business.
And the more you focus on, like, changing what's in their heart as your goal, the more likely you are to feel frustrated. I mean, you've already tried that, right? Like you've tried fighting their perceptions and it didn't work. You said they dug their heels in, and, you know, I'm not surprised by that. That's a really common human response, like, when people feel threatened or attacked, they want to defend themselves. And I think part of being a good manager is learning to hold back from that defense mode, learning to actually listen and be open to other perspectives. And you know, it sounds like FR's manager really could use more of that, and they're not there yet, but still, this is a pretty common human thing, right? So I'm not surprised that jumping in and, like, pushing back backfired.
Jen Dionisio 8:07 Yeah. So, knowing that that is probably never going to be the best solution, and it's likely to lead to a lot more defensiveness from that manager, what is your plan B in that situation?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 8:21 Yeah, okay. Well, I don't know if FR is gonna like this idea, but here's what I would propose: What would happen if you almost took the opposite tack, FR? Like, what if you paused on fighting this feedback and instead got really curious about it and got really curious about where your manager is coming from.
Jen Dionisio 8:42 Yes.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 8:43 Now, I realize that that might sound impossible. It might even sound insulting—ike I know, FR, that you already feel misunderstood. You already have 10,000 reasons you think this feedback is unfair. And so I get how hard it might be to set those things aside, and I get that you might not want to set them aside, but I'm going to encourage you to stick with me and just think about this as an option, even if you ultimately decide not to take it, because, like I said, you already know what's liable to happen if you go in trying to push back: your manager is likely to dig in again, maybe even harder this time, because it reinforces the story they're already telling themselves. And so what I think that might do is just continue the cycle you're in where you stick to your script of being upset, and they stick to their script of telling you that you're the problem and nobody wins, right?
And I think that that's the thing. It's like if you want to change things, I think your best bet is going to be saying, "How do I flip this script?" That would be going in and seeking not to defend yourself or to correct the record, but just to understand your boss and where they're coming from. How did they decide on these scores? What do they make of the large discrepancy between your peers' review and theirs? Where do they think that disconnect comes from? What is it that they're noticing that your peers aren't noticing? What would need to be different in your work day-to-day in order for them to rate you with a similar score to what your peers gave you? What would you be doing that you're not doing right now? How would your work change?
Now, FR, I'm not suggesting that you stop feeling upset, or that you stop believing that things have been unfair. I will trust you that they've been unfair. What I'm suggesting is something a little more subtle, which is like acknowledging that that is your point of view on the situation, that this is unfair, it is biased, there's no evidence, etc. And then consciously choosing to set that point of view aside for a while, and just finding out what you can learn when you immerse yourself in their point of view. Instead of like, judging or evaluating their point of view, just seeking to take it in and understand it.
Jen Dionisio 10:39 It sounds like that doesn't mean that you never get to take that action of defending yourself, of correcting the record. It's just a step before that to make you more informed.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 10:48 Yeah, and the thing is, like, if that doesn't work, maybe you do get into a more defense mode, and maybe you try that path again. It's just that it doesn't seem like that's gotten very far. And you know, as hard as it might sound to set aside some of your hurt and your frustration and your assessment of what's unfair, I do think that it might be your best bet right now, FR, because if you show up with curiosity and you ask honest questions that are designed to also trigger self-reflection in your manager, you might be able to get them thinking and get them to get a little more curious about their own decision-making process.
Because if they feel attacked and they feel like they're being told that they screwed up, that triggers defensiveness, but if they start going, "Hmm, how did I come to that decision? And do I feel good about that?" that is actually a more likely space for them to maybe open up and for them to potentially start to see things from your lens. I know how tempting it is to try to defend and to fight, but I think that people don't tend to change their point of view when someone fights with them or when someone tries to justify themselves. They tend to change their point of view when they get distance on their own behavior and reflect on it. And like, FR, you don't control whether your manager decides to do that. They are the only person who can decide to actually do that reflection. But when you ask curious, open questions, you are kind of teeing them up to do that, and if they want to do it, they're more likely to do it then.
Jen Dionisio 12:17 Yeah.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 12:17 Okay, so FR, if you want to try this approach, I'll suggest that you use some of those questions I said earlier, like, "Hey manager, I noticed this large discrepancy between my peers' reviews and yours. I'm trying to understand what I'm missing. What do you make of this discrepancy? What are you noticing that they might not be noticing?" And you might notice in some of the questions that I have framed out for you, I'm asking a lot of "what" questions here, and that's on purpose. When you start questions with "why," it often tends to trigger defensiveness, because people feel like they have to justify themselves, like, "Why did you do this?"
It feels like now I have to give you evidence, and if you instead rewrite the question to a "what," it feels a little less like you're questioning them and their decision-making, and more like you're trying to simply understand the situation. So that can really, like, lower the defenses, lower people's guards, and turn it into a richer conversation.
Jen Dionisio 13:11 Yeah, and a collaborative one. I like that your approach takes a lot of the onus off FR to try to figure out, like, what's going on, and doing all this detective work. Because, like, they could tell themselves a million stories about why this is happening without their manager ever clarifying what the real reasons or context is. And if those stories aren't true, then what FR might be trying to solve for might be completely off-base.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 13:40 Right. And you know the other part of this—and I realize this is particularly delicate, but I do want to say it—is that, FR, are you open to there being any truth or anything you could glean from this feedback? Because when I read your letter, I see some pretty strong statements: rejecting their feedback outright, that it was totally invalid. They've never provided any examples, etc. And so I'm wondering, how openly have you tried to take in their feedback and consider it? I say this is delicate, because the feedback may well have been entirely unfair. I mean, I trust you, FR, when you say that it was unfair. But even unfair feedback can have grains of truth in it, and if you go in feeling like your job is to defend yourself from the unfairness—which, again, totally human response, right?—when you feel attacked, that you're going to want to defend yourself.
But when you go in that way, you're not really able to listen, and you're really going to block everything out, which means that if there is anything useful in the feedback, you're liable to not hear it. That approach, again, you already tried, and it didn't go very far. So something I might suggest is really attempting to look for things that you can agree with or partially agree with, or spaces where you can own part of the feedback, or where you can say, you know, "I can see that I do need to grow in this area. I think the assessment of, like, where I am is off. But this is a space where I'd like to grow." That shifts the conversation from a fight where It's you versus them—somebody's right, somebody's wrong, somebody wins, somebody loses—to something that's a little bit more of a conversation, and ideally more of a collaboration, because it's showing that you're listening.
It's showing that you are sort of a mature party in this, that you're interested in growth. And I think that that can make a big difference in a manager's willingness to kind of step out of their point of view and see you differently. Will it work? Will they change their review? Yeah, I don't know. I don't know, and there's definitely a decent chance that it won't, because they could stay stuck in their perspective. If there's a real big bias thing happening, that might be something that takes a long time for them to undo, if they ever decide to undo it, so I don't know. But FR, what I do know is that it sounds like furthering a fight isn't going to help you here, and it's probably going to be even more draining. So what would it take to try to shift into a more collaborative approach? And are you willing to find out?
Jen Dionisio 15:59 Yeah, you know, you're making me think of some folks I've had on teams of mine in the past where, in a lot of cases, they started out very defensive whenever feedback was coming in, but sometimes would approach it in this very different way, sort of like what you're describing. And I remember as a manager it being so disorienting to me in a good way, because it really did kind of force me to rethink the stories I was telling myself about how these people take feedback, what ways they are self-aware or able to kind of grow. And even though, like, these conversations sound really scary, I think ultimately, I bet it would be really freeing for FR to kind of get to lay the cards on the table this way, and actually get to the real truth of what's going on. You know, assuming, like you said, that the manager is able to be candid and open to finding a way to move forward together.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 16:57 Yeah. And maybe. And the thing is, maybe not? I don't know, right? Like, I don't want to say like, this will definitely work. It might not, but I think that it is the most likely space where that manager lowers their guard and shows up with openness, is if FR decides to do some of that first.
Jen Dionisio 17:14 Yeah. So since my brain always goes to the worst case scenario, what should FR do if their manager's perspective is just absolutely stuck and doesn't change, and they're not willing to kind of engage on this conversation? Can they still get their comp adjusted somehow, or, like, get access to this secret mystery equity?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 17:35 Yes, the secret equity. Yeah, that part sounds pretty screwed up. And as we're going to talk about money a little bit, I want to state that I'm not a lawyer, not a financial expert, and I am not giving legal or financial advice. I've also only come across equity schemes that were a little bit more transparent. Like, I've seen a lot of them, and many of them are not equitable, but they aren't a big secret, like, where people don't even know that they exist. It's oftentimes more like there's inequities in terms of like, who's getting refreshed stock grants at their annual review and who doesn't, stuff like that.
But with all those caveats, I do want to say this sounds fishy, and I think something I'd suggest, FR, is just trying to get more information about it before doing anything else, because it sounds like right now you're going off of some rumors and tidbits gleaned from unofficial sources, and that might make it really difficult to have a conversation about your particular equity. And so what I would wonder is if this is something you might want to first think about as a fact finding mission and say, "Okay, how do I get more information about what the system actually is and who has it?" And that might mean a chat with HR—not to advocate for yourself yet, but first, just to find out what is the system for equity? Who gets it? At what levels? When do they get it? Is there a guideline? Is it purely discretionary? Whose discretion?
Like, Is that happening at the manager level, or is that happening at a more VP executive level? That kind of just fact finding might help you better understand what you're dealing with here. And I think it could potentially also lead to somebody in HR flagging the situation and kind of noticing, "Oh yeah, this doesn't seem quite right," if it's truly different from everybody else. Alongside that, FR, you might want to start looking at things like pay equity laws in your state or area. They can vary quite a bit. I know, for example, that California has much more robust legislation about this than many other states. I don't know where you're located, but that can definitely play a role. It could even be worth chatting with an employment lawyer just to better understand how the laws work and what your options could be, but I will say, you know, attempting to get pay disparities addressed is notoriously really hard.
Like I know people who've gone through a whole complaint process and ended up spending so much time and energy, and it didn't go their way. And I don't say that to be a downer, but I think that that is an unfortunate reality is that it can be very difficult to prove pay inequity, and also it may not even be illegal. So something I would also suggest thinking about, FR, is leverage. What leverage do you have here? And typically, as an employee, the number one way to have leverage is to have an outside offer. Right now the organization may not see a whole lot of incentive to change your situation. You continue to work there. You continue to do your job. It sounds like you continue to like your colleagues and like the work. And so you're kind of doing your thing.
And so you might be advocating for a pay raise. You might be advocating to get this mystery equity package, but if they don't change the situation for you, nothing changes for them. And this is where I think it's really helpful to remember that, like, corporations are not people, so humans can care about you as a human being, but the corporation itself cannot care. It just can't, because it's not human. It doesn't have feelings. It can only care about the incentives it's designed to care about, like making a profit or making shareholders happy, or, in your case, it sounds like potentially being a desirable company to buy if they are indeed planning to sell. And so if you don't have something that is going to impact the stuff that the organization structurally cares about, it can be really hard to get your way.
An outside offer can create an incentive to keep you around so that you can keep doing the work that you do that helps the company make money and be successful so it can get bought. And so, FR, I don't know exactly what you do, but I know you mentioned that you're in tech, and I will say I understand now might not be the easiest time to get an outside offer. Like there's been a lot of layoffs, so there's a lot of people who are looking, but at the same time, I'm wondering if it'd be worth it to you to see what else is out there, partially, so that you have more negotiating power for sure. That would be huge. But not just for that, also, because I think it might be healthy for you to really consider, "Is it worth it for me to stay here, given how stalled I feel with this manager? Given that I've been trying to get a pay raise for like two years?"
I think that that is a hard thing for you to answer if you haven't evaluated any other potential opportunities, because the only thing that you have in front of you is this current job. So getting some other offer or getting a little bit closer to understanding what it would look like to leave may just give you some more clarity on whether this truly is worth it to you or not.
Jen Dionisio 22:23 Yeah. And I feel like that actually kind of goes back to one of FR's last questions, which is around, like, “Is this a lost cause?” Like, is this fight worth fighting, or is that sort of looking for what's next where that energy should go instead?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 22:40 Yeah. You know, I don't know if it's a lost cause. I don't know enough, and I don't know what might happen if FR tries some of those different techniques, but I do know that if FR wants something to change at this job, I think they're gonna have to change themselves first, something about themselves, meaning like change their approach. Try something new. Because the stuff they've tried has only led to more hurt. And so, FR, I want to leave you with this: if you listen to my suggestions of going in with curiosity, of chatting with HR, of maybe getting an outside offer to use his negotiating power, and you thought, "Fuck that," then that's okay. And I want you to really think about this. It might be time to accept that you're done there.
Jen Dionisio 23:24 Yeah.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 23:24 Meaning, like maybe you fought for so long and felt so knocked down by that process that you just cannot muster the openness and the energy to sort of try again and to shift your approach and to start a new conversation. And if that's where you're at, that is okay. It's okay to say, "You know what? I'm not gonna do all that. I already did so much to change this." But if that is the case for you, FR, and I'm not sure it is, I think it may well be that you still are interested in working things out there. But if that's the case, then I think it's time to ask yourself, "Can I accept that this is how it's likely to stay if I keep working here?" because you said that you like your job and your colleagues, and that's great. That's huge.
But if you're honest with yourself, is that enough for you to process this rage that you've been feeling and to make peace with things staying the same? Because if you can't process that rage, like, if you are going to continue feeling so frustrated and hurt and angry on a day-to-day basis, I'm not sure that good colleagues or interesting work will be enough, because I think that unmetabolized, simmering rage tends to harden into cynicism, and that'll actually get in the way of those work relationships and the things you like about your job, too. So I really think it might be time to ask yourself, "Am I willing to make some changes in my approach? And if I'm not willing to make some changes in my approach, what does acceptance look like? And is that possible for me here, or is it time for me to leave?"
Jen Dionisio 24:51 Well, I really hope, FR, that this gives you some options that you can really kind of choose between and figure out which one is best for you. We are wishing you all the good luck you can get.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 25:04 And all the money too.
Jen Dionisio 25:06 Yeah.
Emily Duncan 25:08 Hi folks, Emily here. If you missed the Manager's Playbook back in May, I have good news. We're running it again in August. The Manager's Playbook is a workshop series designed for leaders who want to have better relationships with their team members, peers, and partners. You know, the folks you spend all day with, but can struggle to understand.
You'll learn coaching and communication skills that will help you tackle all the hard conversations you dread, from giving feedback to resolving conflict. The Manager's Playbook takes place over the course of three weeks, with two workshops and a one-on-one coaching session with Jen or Sara.
We kick off on August 16, and we'd love to see you there. Go to https://www.activevoicehq.com/managers-playbook to learn more about the program. Bring your colleagues. There's a team discount for groups of three or more.
Jen Dionisio 25:58 All right, Sara, you ready for our next question?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 26:00 I sure am.
Jen Dionisio 26:01 Let's hear it.
DE 26:02 I recently interviewed for an internal role that I have been acting in for two years. I interviewed with two senior leaders in the organization and based on that interview, I was not put forward for the next stage of the process. I feel so much shame about this, my ego has been dented, and I feel like a fraud. I am an INTJ with low self-esteem, partly because I work in a really technical field and it's really hard to feel like an expert in such a complex and dynamic field. I feel like my reputation has been damaged because I could not "perform" in the 30-minute time-based interview. I'm a mom with young kids. Energy and reservoirs of resilience are low. I tried and failed but will always think I didn't try hard enough. What would your next steps be? How does a technician explain something complex in a better way?
Jen Dionisio 26:50 I can't get over the fact that this person spent two years in this role and still had to apply for it. I know that is not the point of this dilemma, but God, that feels like a real betrayal and so much more disappointing than just kind of like putting your hat in the ring for a new internal role and not getting it.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 27:12 Right? Like that was one of the first things I clocked too, and I'm sorry, but whoever let this person be in an interim role for two years has some serious explaining to do. If our letter writer wasn't doing great in the interim role, why would you leave them to struggle for two years? And then, if they were doing well in the role, why didn't you make it a permanent thing a long time ago? There is no good case for a two-year interim role. I'm sorry. I mean, maybe there's some kind of like government thing with weird rules about acting roles, or I don't know, sure okay whatever. Bureaucracy maybe could be at play here. But even so, this sucks, and I am so sorry that this happened to this person.
Jen Dionisio 27:49 Yeah, so let's call this person DE for "dented ego," and DE, before we help you figure out what's next, Sara, I'd love to hear from you how you might suggest they start processing what's happened to them, because I imagine this feeling that, like, "I'll always think I didn't try hard enough," could be really haunting to someone.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 28:13 Yeah, yeah. And actually, I think that this might be like the most important thing for you to do here, DE, because if you can make some peace with what happened, you'll be free to move forward in almost any direction you want. But if you find yourself always believing you didn't try hard enough, and always beating yourself up for it, I can see that being really corrosive and further chipping away at your self-esteem, which you already said was low. So Jen, I think this might be a great place for some reframing.
Jen Dionisio 28:40 Yes.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 28:42 Yeah. So, like, looking at the situation through some new and different lenses. So right now, DE, you've got this perspective you're coming in with, which is basically like, "I didn't try hard enough and I'm a failure," and so we're not going to reframe that just to, like, keep it posi, or look on the bright side. It's okay that part of you feels that way. It's okay that you have that particular lens. But what we want to do here, DE, is just add some other points of view to the mix, so that you can basically give yourself a fuller picture instead of just locking into that one nasty voice that says you didn't do enough.
So DE, I'm going to ask you to kind of zoom out here and kind of take stock of things. You were acting in this role for two years. Let's look at that time. What was it like when you stepped up into that role? How did you handle the learning curve? How did you grow while you were in it? What were your biggest wins? What are you proud of? Because no matter what, you did that job for two years, and I'd love to see what happens when you really allow yourself to get some credit for that, especially because you mentioned feeling like a fraud, DE. A fraud wouldn't have survived in that role for two years. A fraud would have nailed the interview and then failed at the actual job, but you did the job, so we know you're not a fraud.
And so I really suggest that you kind of explore the ways in which you succeeded, and let yourself be proud of that, even if you didn't get the permanent role. Another thing to consider here is to kind of take a look at what the leadership team that was hiring for the permanent role, what were they looking for? Is it truly the same as what you were covering in the acting role, or were there like bigger responsibilities or different expertise that they were hoping to get in the permanent role? Do you know? Did you get feedback? And if you didn't, can you ask for some? And I know it might be really hard to hear feedback after your ego was bruised, but it can also be really useful to get a sense of what was in their heads.
And oftentimes, what we find out is that it's not really about us. It wasn't that our performance was bad. It wasn't that we did something wrong. It wasn't like you were worried about bombing it in 30 minutes. It wasn't really bad. It's actually that they had some other requirement in their mind that just wasn't even a fit for our skills. And if that's the case, then that would mean that there wasn't anything you could have done in the interview to solve for that. So I think understanding a little bit more about what it was that they were looking for would be really useful.
Jen Dionisio 31:03 It may turn out to be that it's not so much of a critique of something that DE even has a lot of ego or lack of ego around. It could be it's like, "Oh yeah, that's a thing I'm not actually interested in being great at."
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 31:16 Right. Or just something that maybe you haven't done before. Okay. Finally, DE, you mentioned something. You mentioned you're a mom of two kids, and that resilience and energy reservoirs are low. And I want you to know, I want you to really try to take in here that that is not a failure. That is a fact of life for every single person, we all have limitations on our time and our energy, and we all have to make choices and trade-offs about how we use that time and energy. If I said that I was gonna go run a marathon tomorrow and then I was gonna go hit the gym the next day and try to hit a new deadlift PR, you would think I was absolutely out of my mind and tell me that's absurd, and I hope you would tell me that.
Jen Dionisio 31:55 And risky.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 31:56 Yeah, super dangerous too, because, like, the marathon would wipe me out. My legs would be toast. Why would I then expect to be at my best for lifting weights the next day? It's absurd.
Jen Dionisio 32:09 Don't do that.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 32:09 Don't do that. Okay. But I know a lot of moms who tell themselves that they should somehow be able to be awesome at parenting and awesome at work at the same time, all the time. That's just as unrealistic. Nobody can give 100% to every single thing that demands some of their attention. We all have to make trade-offs. You're human, and so, DE, I would encourage you to zoom way, way, way out. Let's imagine it's like 20 years from now, your kids are grown ups living their own lives. Maybe you're headed to retirement. I don't know how old you are, but 20 years from now, what do you think is going to be meaningful to you? What does that version of you care about? And what would that person wish that today you had prioritized?
I don't know you, DE, but I'm going to guess that your family is probably going to still mean a whole lot in 20 years. Not getting this position? I bet it's gonna seem like a blip. And so DE, what would happen if you made peace with this being the trade-off that you made? Allowing yourself to really believe that you gave what you could to going for this role, given the circumstances and priorities in your life right now, and if the circumstances had been different, different timing, different home life, different whatever, you could have given more, but in this moment, with this mix of stuff happening for you, this was what you had available. And what if you let yourself believe that that was enough? Because that's what you had.
Jen Dionisio 33:35 I really love that reframe. It really does put so many things in context. But I also don't want to lose track of one question that DE asked that is a little bit more tied to those, like, what-ifs and that's the question of, like, how does a technician explain something complex in a better way? I don't know if they got this as formal feedback, but it sounds a little like this is why DE thinks they didn't get the role. So is there something that can be done about that if it's the case?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 34:09 Yeah. So when I heard that, it made me think about what DE had said earlier in their letter, which is that they have low self-esteem because their field is really technical. And they said, you know, it's really hard to feel like an expert in such a complex and dynamic field. This is actually where I would suggest that DE focus—like, how can they build deeper self-trust and feel good about their skills and their knowledge? The reason being is that I see self-trust as being the foundation of confidence, so until we feel good about what we bring to the conversation, any attempts to do things like communicate more boldly, or have executive presence, or whatever, they really tend to fall flat, because the underlying issue, the thing that's really getting in the way of that solid communication, is them not believing they're an expert who has something valuable and important to say.
So, DE, if you show up to a conversation about your work feeling deficient or behind, feeling not good enough, then you're really likely to have a hard time being clear and concise and confident when explaining it. So, self-trust. Big topic, and I will tell you, DE: building self-trust is not simple. It's not easy. It takes time, but I do know that it's possible. The group program that we run, Power Shift, it spends a lot of time helping people on their self-trust, and one of the things we've seen is that people can come out the other end of that program really feeling differently about themselves and their capacity and what's possible for them. And so we know that that is something that can change for people. We've seen it happen.
And so I hope that you kind of hold on to that idea that it's possible to feel differently. It is possible to work in a complex, ever-changing field and not feel quite so low about yourself. I will argue that I think this is probably the most valuable work that you can do right now in terms of shifting how your communication is going to be perceived.
Jen Dionisio 36:06 Yeah. So Sara, for someone who did not join our Power Shift program, what would that work look like to them?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 36:13 I think the core of it is really spending some time reflecting and documenting your areas of strength, and some of those questions I asked before, about, like, when you first got this acting role, and what your wins were there. I think those would help. But I think even going broader than that, and asking yourself, DE, like, what drew you to this field? What aspects of your technical area do you feel like you know the most about? Like, where are your strengths? And even if it's not that many, even if it's just a couple things, what are the things that you feel really good about? What are the skills that you have that make you good at this work? What do you notice that other people tend to miss? What do people on your team come to you for help with?
All of those things start to uncover areas where there is strength, knowledge, expertise, depth, and that can help you kind of start to claim some of those. DE, you also mentioned that the work is really dynamic, so, like, the field's changing all the time, and that can feel destabilizing, but at the same time, I also think the fact that you can see it changing, that says that you know a lot about it. So one other thing you can do to really think about having a little bit more ownership over the field, like, feeling more like you're kind of have your pulse on it, is to really think about where you see the field headed from here. What skills do you think that people will need more of in the future? What do you think the field should be focusing on right now? What do you think really matters?
I'm asking you these questions right now because, DE, I literally want you to sit down and answer them. I will suggest that you sit down and you free-write whatever comes to mind about each of them. Get a big old mess of stuff, and once you have that big mess of stuff, I want you to zoom out and look for themes in what you wrote. Where is it that you have a lot to say? Where is it that you feel like you had the strongest, like, "Ooh, I have something to note here." That's where you have a point of view, that's a strength area. And when you start to identify those and get comfortable with those, that can give you a strong place to speak from. That doesn't mean you don't have gaps. Doesn't mean you don't have growth areas. We all do.
But, DE, the thing I've found is that we often tend to get so focused on the gaps that we shy away from owning the stuff that we are strong in, and we end up showing up to a conversation from a place of weakness, instead of showing up to the conversation from a place of strength. And so no matter how many gaps you have, you will show up at your best when you lead from your strengths and you really own those. So the clearer you are on what they are, and the more comfortable you are talking about them, and the more comfortable you are owning them, the easier it's going to be for you to dive into complex technical topics without feeling so self-conscious and overwhelmed.
Jen Dionisio 38:57 Yeah, you know, as you've been giving this advice, it's actually reminding me of an old boss of mine who I think had a lot of similarities with DE in terms of their kind of lack of confidence in technical areas, but just incredible skill in terms of operations and management and all of these other really important things that were, like, gaps for the rest of the team. So, DE, as you're looking at those strengths, you know maybe another thing to remember is just that none of us work on our own, and you may be surrounded by people who are incredibly confident speaking to all of these technical things, whereas you feel maybe a little more like you're stumbling over your words. But I guarantee if you were asked to step into this role initially, there was a good reason for it, and figuring out what those things are and were might really give you some clues into, like, what is exceptional and special about yourself.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 39:59 Yes and DE, even if it doesn't feel like it right now, I know that there are things that are exceptional and special about you, and I really hope you go find them. Thank you so much for writing in.
Jen Dionisio 40:10 Take care of yourself, DE.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 40:18 That's it for this week's episode. Per My Last Email is a production of Active Voice. Check us out at https://www.activevoicehq.com/ and you can get all the past episodes, show notes and full transcripts for Per My Last Email at https://pmleshow.com/. This episode was produced by Emily Duncan. Our theme music is, "(I'm A) Modern Woman" by Maria T. Buy her album at https://thisismariat.bandcamp.com/. Thank you to Full of Rage and Dented Ego for submitting their stories for today's show, and thank you so much for listening. If you've got a work dilemma for us, we want to hear it. Head to https://pmleshow.com/ to submit your story and we will see you next time.