Having needs doesn’t make you needy. But some workplaces sure try to make you feel that way, don’t they?
What do you do when your needs aren’t being met or your boundaries are getting trampled? On today’s episode, Jen and Sara walk listeners through ways to advocate for yourself at work—without justifying your existence, begging for your boundaries to be respected, or feeling like a failure if it doesn’t work.
You’ll come away with a few scripts you can try in your own workplace—and our very sincere permission to drop some of those balls you keep juggling.
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Got a work situation eating away at you? Send it to us! Submit your dilemma at PMLEshow.com.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:00 Constantly trying to convince someone to believe that you deserve to be in the room that it is your literal job to be in is so exhausting because it puts you on defense all the time.
SWB 0:28 Hey, Jen.
Jen Dionisio 0:30 Hey, Sara.
SWB 0:31 We're rollin'.
JD 0:32 We sure are.
SWB 0:34 We gotta up our witty banter game.
JD 0:37 Bear with us while we practice. So, hi, everyone. This is Per My Last Email, the show about what to do when work gets weird. I'm Jen Dionisio.
SWB 0:48 And I am Sara Wachter-Boettcher. And before we get to this week's dilemmas, Jen, I have a very important question for you: Have you ever gotten a "per my last email" in your inbox?
JD 0:58 Oh, I have gotten so many "per my last emails". But I actually got one the day after we decided to name the show Per My Last Email, which created—
SWB 1:11 What?
JD 1:11 a really perfect synergy between my life and this podcast. Some things I noticed about it immediately were that it was someone following up with me about a meeting that they had sent, I don't know, the day before. So I had not had a chance to respond to them yet because it wasn't a very high priority email. And just reading it was such a good reminder that it was like, "Per my last email, why aren't you addressing my needs right now?"
SWB 1:47 Yeah. Gosh, it can just feel so toxic to get a message like that. Like, immediately put me on edge. And also I feel like it's just one of these things about work culture that can be so absurd but the absurdity is so normalized that it blurs into the background. Like, we almost don't stop and think about how ridiculous it is to get an email that starts with "Per my last email:" You know, there's a colon there.
JD 2:14 Always.
SWB 2:15 Extra aggression. Oh, my gosh.
JD 2:18 The colon is so aggressive and so contrary to what my goal was in 2022, which was to just add as many emojis, and exclamation points, and joyful communication cues as absolutely possible.
SWB 2:35 Yes, you know, I'm really tired of all of that advice out there that's like, "Ladies, remove all the exclamation points from your emails." Do you what happens when women do that? They tend to get actually critiqued even more for it.
JD 2:48 Yeah. "You sound cold. And aloof. And bitchy."
SWB 2:53 Oof, I think that's a good transition to today's topic. Because today we're talking about speaking up and what to do when it feels like no one is listening. And so we're going to talk about boundaries. We're going to talk about self-advocacy, and the dilemmas are really, really good. I can't wait to get your take on them. Are you ready?
JD 3:14 I am. Let's do it.
SWB 3:20 Okay, so our very first question is from a senior content strategist who we'll call Jane.
VO #1 "Jane" 3:27 I have a project owner who regularly makes content and design decisions that will impact a project, and not for the better. Their recommendations go against best practices, speak on issues that aren't issues (not identified in scope), and go against user research insights. They've spoken derogatorily about content in meetings with stakeholders. I fear that this makes it seem that this person doesn't have any faith in their content team. How do I help this person come around to believing in her content team and to trust the work that we do?
JD 4:00 This feeling of being undervalued and undermined as a content team feels so universal these days. Sara, you've lead a number of workshops around this topic, haven't you?
SWB 4:13 Yeah, I started running workshops about, like, how to be a content leader without losing yourself or your mind in the process, because I feel like it just comes up over and over again. And I think it really boils down to the situation that is, it's not exclusive to content people, but it's really common for people in content roles, which is like constantly trying to convince someone to believe that you deserve to be in the room that it is your literal job to be in.
4:39 It is so exhausting, because it puts you on defense all the time. You're always feeling like you need to justify your role. People will tell you outright that what you need to do is you need to make a case for content design or content strategy in your org. And it's like, "Why did you hire me if you don't believe this is real?" and so I think it can get very personal-feeling for people where it feels like you're justifying yourself. And that's just like not a healthy place to live psychologically. And I think it's something that the entire content field, and I think user research has some similar challenges, really has to reckon with, because it's like this internalized thing that I see come up over and over again.
JD 5:16 Yeah. And, you know, it's even more exhausting when, in addition to feeling that defense for yourself, you're in a role where you're also having to do that on behalf of an entire content team and thinking about what they need in addition to what you personally need out of this.
SWB 5:34 Yeah, I feel like that's a lot of extra weight that people often go through. And that's one of the reasons, you know, when I talk to people who are in leadership roles in content is that I think it can be so hard to be like the leader of the underdogs, because you feel all of this pressure on you from above and all of this pressure from your team to want to support them and make sure that you're making space for them and to get rid of the barriers so they can do their work. Which is why I'm not surprised that we actually have a second question from a content person which touches on some related topics. Let's call her CM. Here's what she has to say:
VO #2 "CM" 6:06 I'm the first content strategist in a department that desperately needed one but didn't know why or what we do. It's been hard advocating for content, and it's caused some friction. My input was questioned, I was routinely left out of research strategy and journey design. My presence on some projects was questioned. My manager would sometimes share feedback with me about an interaction I had with someone from another team. Names were never shared. Feedback was vague and unhelpful because details were vague to protect the person who complained about me. I know who it was. I was told to "watch my tone" and to reflect on the situation to prevent it from happening again. Triggering for a Black woman as we're statistically more likely to get unhelpful, unactionable feedback. The issue I'd really like help with is how do I get my boss to advocate for me and have my back? I'm never asked for my side, because the feedback was always automatically accepted as true. It doesn't feel like a safe place.
JD 7:07 That is an impossible spot to find yourself in. It sounds like CM both needs to show the value of her skill set to people who don't get it, and in the process is being completely demoralized by weird, vague feedback around her own value and effectiveness.
SWB 7:29 Oh, and that "watch your tone" feedback? Yikes. I need a little yikes alarm. That is such fertile ground for bias. I don't think that CM needs me to tell her that this comes up all the time for people of color, and particularly for Black women. Clearly, she already knows. But I do think that this is worth talking about for everybody out there listening because there's a lot of data about language bias in performance feedback specifically. Jen, did you see this study last year that came out of Textio?
JD 8:01 Oh, I don't think I did.
SWB 8:02 Okay, so they did this big language analysis where they were looking at a data set of 25,000 written performance reviews. And I know this is not our performance review episode; that was episode one. But I think it's really relevant here, particularly with CM's issue about being told to watch her tone. So what they found at Textio is that again, across 25,000 performance reviews, vague feedback is much more common for some groups to receive than others. They found that Black women received nearly 9x as much feedback that's not actionable compared to white men.
JD 8:38 Jesus.
SWB 8:39 9x. They also found some other little tidbits that I think are useful here: women are 7x more likely than men to be called "opinionated." Which like, I am opinionated, but you know when that's an a performance review, they're saying it as a negative thing.
JD 8:54 Yep.
SWB 8:55 Personally, I like my opinions. Also, 11x more likely to be called "abrasive."
JD 9:01 Oh, right, of course, because you're spouting out all those thoughts into the world.
SWB 9:06 Mm-hmm. Meanwhile, men are 3x more likely to be called "confident," and almost 4x more likely to be called "ambitious."
JD 9:14 If you need a bell for that, I need a foghorn to say "ugh."
SWB 9:20 Right? Well and like, you know that a lot of this is like the same behavior from one group is "opinionated" and from the other group is "confident."
JD 9:29 Mm-hmm.
SWB 9:29 But going back to CM here. Okay, I think that this is really just backing up what she already knows to be true, right? Like, she already knows in her bones, as she says, it's very triggering for a Black woman to be told to watch her tone. Yeah, because A) super racist. B) you really can't do anything with that feedback. That is not informative. That's not helpful. There's no specific action you can take.
9:53 And so I think it's one thing to realize, "Oh, wait, that's way more about the person giving the feedback than it is about me." And I hope that CM can take that to heart. But I still think it's like a really big question to ask, "Okay, but what do I do now?"
JD 10:06 Ah, this data set is really rich from what I'm hearing, so let's put a link to it in the show notes, Sara.
SWB 10:14 We definitely will. And let's talk about these letter writers' dilemmas, because they have some stuff in common. So, they're both content people. Their presence has been questioned. They feel undermined. They feel unsupported. So we've got Jane asking how to get her project owner to "come around to believing in her content team." And we've got CM asking, "How can I get my boss to advocate for me and have my back?" So Jen, can these listeners turn their adversaries into allies? Where would you start?
JD 10:44 Yeah, you know, I would actually take a little step back with both of them if I was coaching them in real life. You know, we often talk about clients having a presenting agenda, or the things that they kind of initially come to us with, versus their deeper agenda, like the "why it matters." And that first kind of presenting agenda is really like that sort of top-of-mind worry, or feeling, or belief. And the deeper agenda is much more of the underlying need or value that's being violated. It's like that trigger to say, "This is what is really making this impact my life."
11:26 And so with that in mind, you know, I think my first question for both would likely be something like, "Before we talk at all about how either of your bosses or colleagues can advocate for you, let's start with how you're doing, and how you're feeling, and how this is impacting you." And when we are often talking about understanding, like, "what are those needs that I'm feeling that are being violated?" a resource we always use as a go-to is the BICEPS model by fellow coach named Paloma Medina, that outlines these six core needs that people have at work and in life in general. And they are: belonging, improvement, choice, equality and fairness, predictability, and significance.
12:20 And, you know, to some degree, they're all very important, but at different moments in your life, at different scenarios you may be facing, some might really stand out as needs that are not being met. And the one I'm hearing really strongly in both of these scenarios is "equality and fairness". So they both already have the pressure of their discipline being singled out as different, or maybe not as important, or—
SWB 12:52 A nice-to-have.
JD 12:53 A nice-to-have. God, that's familiar. And then on top of that, you know, especially in the case of CM, you're defending your discipline, and you're having to defend yourself. And I suspect if it's like most of the places where we talk to people, content strategy's really kind of taking that double hit in a way that you see other teams not taking. And it feels awful.
SWB 13:20 And I think that this is one of those moments where it's so helpful to get clear on those needs for yourself. Because it feels so awful, because it feels so personal, because it tends to be painful when you're stuck in that spot. All of that like zooming out and using BICEPS just helps you get out of that very like, knee-jerk, emotional reaction place. Which is normal. All of us get into it.
JD 13:42 Oh yeah.
SWB 13:43 Like, if you are being challenged, and you're being told your role is not important, or something, like, it is normal to end up in that place that feels very activated, right? So I think going through BICEPS is really this way to like, slow yourself down and get a lot of clarity on what you actually need. From there, you know, what I am always talking to people about is how are you going to communicate that need?
JD 14:03 Mm-hmm.
SWB 14:03 And I think a lot of us are not used to communicating those needs. We're used to kind of talking around them, pushing them down, and pretending we're fine and smiling until we kind of want to die inside.
JD 14:14 Not familiar at all.
SWB 14:15 Yeah. Mm-hmm. Or we're used to doing things like being passive aggressive, hinting at stuff. And oftentimes what that does is it leaves the other party really in the dark about what you are actually asking them to do. And I think for a lot of people it feels safer to do that to kind of like hint around, be a little vague and passive aggressive, imply things instead of ask for them. Because if you ask for something that's vulnerable, the other party could say no.
14:45 It feels safer in the moment, but the problem with that approach is that when people don't understand specifically: "What is the situation? When are things not working for you? What is going wrong? Who's involved?" And they don't understand what your unmet needs are, and they don't know what it is specifically you're asking of them, then the easiest answer for them is to like, do nothing, or to sort of like placate your feelings, but not necessarily take any action on your behalf.
15:12 And so I think the biggest thing is calm yourself, work through that BICEPS model so that you know what it is that you need. And then once you do that, get really clear on the request you're trying to make. What is it that you want to see happen from here? What would advocacy look like? What do you want your boss to be saying to you? What does it mean for them to have your back? What does it mean to believe in your content team? What are the specific behaviors that you would be seeing that you're not seeing?
15:41 Spend some time even just like writing those out, because again, this is the kind of thing that might benefit from a little slowness because there's a lot of emotion in there. And then practice having that conversation through that lens of, "Hey, here's what's not working for me." Use those "I-statements," right? Like, "I'm struggling with X, I'm feeling Y." And then what do you want to see happen? And if you can start to speak in those terms, where you can make specific requests to people, it can be really powerful, and it can really help them understand what your needs are. And they can decide, are they going to meet them or not?
JD 16:16 Yeah, I think in the examples we're hearing here with Jane and CM, if we think about, let's say, that core need being violated and both of their scenarios being equality and fairness, maybe what Jane is asking for is something like being consulted before these big group meetings so that her boss shares some of the things that she wants to recommend. But Jane has an opportunity to kind of vet them and give feedback before they're treated as the ward of law in the bigger team group, especially because the boss has, you know, more power in that situation. They have a voice that's going to be listened to more than Jane who technically has more expertise in this area.
17:00 And for CM, you know, maybe it's a specific request around what kind of feedback is given and how that's communicated in a way that's more actionable. And while that one can be particularly tricky, you know, I think sometimes when we're not quite sure what our request is, if your boss or a colleague or anyone else that you're trying to work with to get this need met is responding like a good and decent human being, then you can even propose the idea of collaborating to come up with a shared solution: "I know this needs not being met. Here are some things that I'm thinking could make it better, but I want your thoughts, too. How can we do this together?"
SWB 17:48 You know, I really do want to point out, though, that one of the things in CM's message specifically was that it doesn't feel like a safe place. And so she's really feeling like, not only is her need not being met, but she's also, she's never asked for her side of the story. She's never asked for her perspective on what's going wrong here. I want to really point out here that, like, that's valid, too. If it doesn't feel safe to you, if it feels like an environment where it is not going to be welcome for you to communicate your needs and for you to say that something isn't working for you, that is valid for you to pay attention to that feeling.
18:23 That feeling may or may not be the one that gets to decide whether you speak up or not. But that feeling is important to tune into. If you don't feel safe, it's not a safe place for you. I do think it can be helpful, though, to still kind of come back to a mantra I have in these scenarios, which is "you can't make anyone do anything." You cannot get anybody to advocate for you who doesn't want to advocate for you. You cannot get someone to see something that they're not interested in seeing. So if your manager is not interested in seeing their behavior as biased than they simply will not see it.
18:56 The only person who can make that happen is them. They're going to have to make a decision to be able to see things. I think this is a little bit deflating at first, because it feels like, "Wait, I guess there is no foolproof way." And that's true, there is no foolproof way to get somebody to advocate for you. But what I think it helps us do is to come back to what is actually in our control. So you can't control what other people choose to do. But if you take the time to identify your needs and to come at the conversation through the lens of like, "Here's what's not working for me. Here's what I'd like to see happen," you're being really specific. You are being clear about what's not working for you and about what you want to see happen. You're making a request.
19:37 Okay, if you've done that, you can feel confident that if you don't get that need met, it's not because you didn't communicate it. It's not because you don't know what your needs are. It's because the other party decided not to do it. And what that does is it creates a little bit of space for you to feel good about showing up to that conversation as effectively as possible. And to feel good about getting that clarity. Because then when other people choose not to meet you there, you can look at that as a them thing, as opposed to seeing that as something that's your problem or your fault.
20:13 And I think that's where a lot of shame comes from and a lot of pain comes from is we internalize other people's failure to show up for us or to meet our needs as something that we have personally caused, or something that's like, "If I was just more compelling...If I was just a better communicator...If I was just this...If I was just this." We can go down this whole path of it being our fault. So I think when you prepare yourself to have these hard conversations, and when you choose to show up to them and have that courage to say, "It may not be the safest place for me to have this conversation. But this needs to be said anyway."
20:47 At that point. It's kind of like you've put the ball in their court. And now you're just getting information back. What happens? Do they change their approach? Do you get more respect? Do they hear you? And if the answer to those things is no, that isn't great. But now you have that information, and now you can make decisions for yourself. And you can say, "Okay, maybe this isn't the place for me. And there's nothing I could do that would make this the place for me because I did all of the things: I worked through my needs. I figured out how to communicate them really clearly. I wasn't defensive. I wasn't attacking. I did all of this work, and I'm still not being heard. That's a them problem. And I can't fix them problem."
21:32 And I think that that can help us from kind of like continually beating our head against the wall, like, trying to convince somebody to respect us who doesn't want to. And that, we gotta protect our energy from that.
JD 21:44 Yeah. And, Sara, I think that's such a good reminder, too, that while you can't control other people's actions, or behaviors, or how much they listen to you, you know, these tools are also really helpful in figuring out what is within your power to control for yourself. You know, it might be that, "Here's the situation. Here's the need. And here's what I want to request of myself. Here's when I decide that the flow chart is pointing towards speaking up, or here's when I want to be in more of a protective mode. And here's the agreement I'm going to make with myself around what's okay and what's not to get hit with."
SWB 22:27 At the least it's like a compass for yourself to figure out how you want to move forward. And I think that that's a big difference from what I often see people do, which is get into that place of, like, absorbing other people's lack of advocacy or lack of support as being their personal failings. And I think that is the biggest thing that this can help you avoid just by creating some of that space and really understanding what it is that you need and what it is that you would like to see happen.
JD 22:54 Yeah. And I think too, you know, knowing that this is such a common crisis, I almost want to call it, across content teams, you know, know that you're not alone.
SWB 23:07 Oh, my gosh, let me tell you what, you are not alone. Because I talk to so many people in this same exact scenario.
JD 23:15 It's not you, because if it was only you, we wouldn't be hearing this from so many people right now.
SWB 23:21 I cannot express how many people.
SWB 23:28 Okay, can we get to our next question?
JD 23:30 Let's do it.
SWB 23:31 Okay, so this one comes from a UX researcher who we'll call out "Alex".
VO #3 "Alex" 23:36 One of the managers that I work with wanted to experiment with embedding research in one of seven value streams within the org I work at. Currently, we're a small team and take on projects across value streams. I was approached to pilot the embedded model, and I jumped at the opportunity because "growth!" "Experience!" "All the good things!" It became clear very quickly that being embedded meant spending about 80% of my day in meetings, leaving little time for actual research and synthesis. I said I would try it out for 30 days then provide a report on my experience.
24:07 Within three weeks, it was already decided that the other researchers would become embedded as well. This was before I shared any feedback aside from, "Whoa, too many meetings." Day 30 came, and I shared my report with the entire team, only to be told that being in meetings is important in order to stay "to the left of design," and that we needed a faster turnaround on research reports. I was open and honest about the fact that decisions were being made before anyone asked for feedback and that the embedded model needed work in order to be sustainable. Yet again, I was told, "keep doing what you're doing."
24:42 I'm now eight weeks into this embedded model and am beyond burned out. And doing "what I'm doing" is not working. Is something wrong with me. Why can't I juggle all of this work? Why is no one hearing me, and at what point do I rage quit? How do I draw boundaries with leadership that doesn't hear me?
SWB 25:03 Oof, okay, so Alex thought they were doing an experiment, but then the experiment got labeled a success while it was still in progress, and now they're stuck working that way, even though it's absolutely frying them.
JD 25:16 And on top of that, the situation is making them blame and doubt themselves, instead of focusing that blame and doubt on the process.
SWB 25:27 Right. "Why can't I juggle all this work?" "Is something wrong with me?" Ooh, Alex, I don't think there's anything wrong with you. So, okay, Jen. What might Alex want to do here?
JD 25:38 Yeah, and spoiler alert, Alex, definitely don't think there's anything wrong with you. So it's interesting, Alex, you asked about drawing boundaries. And, you know, I think sometimes what can be a real struggle with those is feeling like a boundary is a punishment, or that it's you being difficult, or it's you kind of breaking the rules. And there's a great therapist called Nedra Glover Tawwab, and she has this great description of boundaries as something that keeps you safe and comfortable in your relationships.
26:17 And I love that description of a boundary because it actually turns them into opportunities. You know, and in your case, Alex, like, you're offering your team a way to keep you essentially, because if you continue being unhappy and burned out and have your boundaries violated, you're going to leave.
SWB 26:38 Mm-hmm.
JD 26:39 And so while it can feel like putting out all these boundaries is somehow you being difficult or not getting with the program or not fitting into this new model, what it is, to some degree is saying, "Here's what I need to be able to continue to do this work for you. And you say I'm doing pretty well, so why don't you create the conditions that let me stay here without burning out entirely?"
SWB 27:07 Yes. I mean, it's my boundaries and needs go hand-in-hand, it's like, "What are my needs?" And then, "What are the boundaries that will help me get those needs met? So what are the boundaries I need to set that enable the needs to be met, and without those boundaries, my needs are violated?" And I think, look, people can choose whether or not to meet your needs. They can choose whether or not to respect your boundaries, then you have some choices to make about whether you stay around. But, like, nobody else gets to decide whether or not they exist or if they're good or bad.
27:42 Fundamentally, nobody can actually change your boundaries or your needs. They will exist, whether people acknowledge them, whether people choose to meet them. They are simply there. They're as core to you as breathing. And so I think that it's really helpful to just recognize that boundaries themselves, even when we're not communicating them, even when we are not upholding them, they exist. They're just being trampled on, and we're paying a price for that. So I think it's really helpful to remember right, like, this isn't about creating something out of thin air, it's about sort of like honoring what's already true in a way that will keep you safe and healthy.
JD 28:21 Oh, that's such a good way to put it. And I think it's also a good reminder that there are the boundaries that other people trample on and then there are the ones that we trample on ourselves. And sometimes, you know, like you were saying, Sara, like, those boundaries are out there. They exist. Your body and your brain knows what it wants and what it needs. And it's not always just people outside of us who are kind of stepping on them. It can be ourselves, especially when that inner critic starts popping in and telling you that you're the one with the problem because you can't fit in.
SWB 28:59 Oh, yeah, this is really important because, you know, I often hear people say things like, "I'm overwhelmed, I can't keep up. I can't keep juggling all of this." And they'll say, you know, "I went to my manager, and I said, 'I can't keep juggling all of this.' And I've said it over and over again." But then when we talk about it, what we find is like, they are juggling all of it. They keep juggling all of it. That they're refusing to let anything fall to the floor. They're refusing to say, "I can't keep juggling this," and then actually stop. And so it's unfair, but the message that's often received by others in those scenarios is like, "Oh, this person can handle it. They say they're overwhelmed, but clearly they can handle it."
29:39 The reality is that in that scenario, they're only handling it at the expense of their well-being. So yeah, sure, they might be continuing to juggle it, but it's at the expense of their personal life, at the expense of their happiness, right? At the expense of their health. Well, I think of this as like, this is an organizational pain point. You have too many workstreams in your company for the number of researchers that you have. That's a company problem.
30:04 So what's happening though, is that that company problem is getting transformed into a personal problem. So the company should be feeling the pain of failing to hire enough resources to do the job well. And instead, Alex is feeling the pain, because she's absorbing the company's poor choices as her own problem. And she's being pressured to do so, right? Like, this is not something she's making up. Like, she's being pressured to absorb that pain. So in these situations, something I always suggest to people is like, "What would it look like to allow the organization to feel some of the pain of its choices?" You told them with this was not sustainable. They didn't listen. So what happens when you stop sustaining it, you let something fall to the ground, you let something break? Let them feel the pain of their choices.
30:53 And it's a little bit of a risk, right? It's a little bit of a risk to not do everything, because you might get perceived as not having done a good job, you could get blamed, etc. But I think of that as sort of like a risk that you can take in service of the organization taking seriously that you have boundaries. And it's also, like, you warned them. You say "this is not sustainable." And then you say, "I cannot keep doing this. I will have to stop doing all these things." And then you stop. And if they didn't listen to you, and they didn't think about what they were going to do when you stopped, that sounds like a them problem.
JD 31:32 Yeah, I concur. And I, you know, I think, too something about Alex that's really standing out to me is, like, they've done the self-advocacy work that we were talking about earlier. And to Alex's question, like, those boundaries are being ignored, and so it might be that you need to turn up the volume on when and how those boundaries are being communicated to people. Sara, have you read "The Book of Boundaries?" The new book by Melissa Urban?
SWB 32:06 No, but I have had like three people tell me that it really helped them.
JD 32:10 Yeah. Well, I'll be honest, I haven't actually read it yet either. And I'll also caveat Melissa Urban, she is the founder of Whole30. Not a giant fan of diet culture. Whole30 did some real fucked up things to my body when I tried it a few years ago.
SWB 32:27 Oh, I'm so sorry.
JD 32:29 But...It's okay, it got better eventually.
SWB 32:33 Yeah. Yeah, I have heard really good things about this book, though. But same. I'm very reticent to recommend things that feel very tied into diet culture. So heads up to anybody who checks out this book, but I have heard good things about it.
JD 32:46 Yeah. And before she put out this book, you know, something she would do, I think weekly on Instagram was like, show three examples of communicating a boundary. And she put it in this like framework of like, green, yellow, red. So green is expressing your boundary but being sort of warm and friendly about it. Yellow is being a bit more direct. And red is being super direct, you know. So green may be, "Hey, you know, I'm doing the best I can to keep up with this workload, but I would love your help in reducing my workload." Yellow would be something like, "I'm having trouble keeping up with this workload. I'm going to let these three things go." And a red may be, "we need to rework this workload or I'm leaving."
33:42 So this sort of like spectrum of comfort based on how people, going back to our earlier conversation, how safe you feel around the people that you're communicating to, how much risk you're willing to absorb in terms of, you know, upsetting colleagues or having your job at risk, it's all going to influence how or when you communicate. But it sounds like this is a moment where it might be time to turn up the dial on the directness with which you're sharing your boundary, especially because it is in service of protecting your health, your mental health, your physical health.
34:21 If you're burning out and just drowning in work, that is a level of urgency that might warrant speaking in more of that sort of direct, no-compromise tone. And another technique I've heard work really well for people who feel like their boundaries are constantly being ignored or overlooked is the broken record technique, which is pretty self explanatory, which is, even though it might make you feel like you're being a downer, or a nuisance, or a negative force on the team, you know, by repeating that boundary again and again until people start to internalize it themselves could be another method that helps to really let it sink into people that this situation isn't sustainable anymore.
SWB 35:11 You know, I do want to come back to this idea that communicating the boundary is important. Communicating it clearly and firmly is great. And we don't control what other people decide to do. And so like, part of this is just getting to a place where you know that whether somebody listens to your boundary, whether somebody chooses to respect it, your boundary is still real, and you're paying the price of it not being respected. And to really say, "How do I protect my own boundary?" Meaning like, "I say it, they still don't listen." Okay, again, "What do I have to drop? What do I simply not do?"
35:50 And this is where it gets really hard, because it's like, people-pleasing will tell you to always try to make other people happy. And you may disappoint some people when you let some balls drop, when you stop showing up to meetings. But I think that if you're at a place where you're feeling like, "This is not sustainable, and I can't keep working in this job, if something doesn't change," then that is the perfect time, because actually, you're going to quit if it doesn't change anyway. So you might as well make some experiments in seeing if by stopping some of what you're doing, people start to change their tune.
36:24 And if they don't, well, again, you were gonna quit anyway because you couldn't keep doing this. So I feel like that is sometimes the way to actually get people to respect a boundary is to simply take action and change your behavior, as opposed to just keeping on communicating over and over again.
JD 36:42 Yeah. And, Alex, if you're listening, I am so sorry that you have to do it because I know that process of upholding boundaries is exhausting in its own right, and you're already exhausted.
SWB 36:53 It is. But it's a practice, right? Like, all of us have to get better at it. And I think it's one of those things that the more that you practice it and the more that you practice even just like saying them out loud, it does get easier over time. It really does.
SWB 37:13 Okay, Jen, are you ready for our last dilemma of the day?
JD 37:18 Let's hear it.
SWB 37:19 Okay, here we go. This is from somebody will call V. Here's what V has to say:
VO #4 "V" 37:27 I'm currently working with a new team. I've held a kickoff meeting and have daily stand ups to discuss current work, but I have a hard time asking for help, mostly because I feel like I'm interrupting workflow or just plain ol' interrupting. I think this feeling will subside as the team continues to work together, but is there something I can do to bridge the gap and not be seen as interrupting?
JD 37:48 Ooh, Sara, inner critic alert. I'm hearing it very loudly in this submission.
SWB 37:55 Tell me more about that. Tell me about the inner critic that you're hearing from V?
JD 37:58 Yeah. So when I think about the conversation I'd have with V if they were my client, I'd go back to the story that they're telling themselves, which is, "I'm interrupting everyone when I asked for help." So V, who's saying that, right? It could be that there are people on your team that are acting annoyed when you ask questions, who kind of shrug you off or push you off. But a lot of times, especially in similar situations to what V's describing, it's an internal voice that's really kind of writing that story where you're doing something wrong because you're asking for a need to get met.
38:43 That could be based on a whole lot of things like you're on a new team. And maybe, you know, you're coming from a team that you'd been with for a long time and built a lot of trust with or that you lead, so you're used to being in the know. And this could be maybe a new and uncomfortable situation that you're just kind of getting used to. Or it could be that sort of voice in your head that feels like you are a failure or you're disruptive if you're not 100% clear on everything going on and not 100% needless at all moments.
39:19 So V, something I would ask when you say the story "I'm interrupting everyone when I asked for help," what evidence is there that that's true? And if you're having trouble coming up with that evidence, then I might propose spending a little bit of time slowing down and saying, "What are some other perspectives I could take on to really kind of understand why I'm feeling this way?" What is perhaps a positive spin on the fact that you're asking for help, you know, it sounds like right now V is very much seeing this in terms of being a burden, but maybe V's asking for help so that they can get their work done faster, make their teammates lives easier, free themselves up for higher level tasks.
40:13 With that kind of a reframe, asking for help feels a lot less like you're burdening your teammates and more like you're offering support to them. Thinking of another perspective you could take on is think about the other people on your team. Are they asking for help? And when they are? Or if they did, would you think of that as interrupting? Or disruptive? You know, when you hear someone, like, are you irritated with them? Are you angry? Do you think that that means they're not smart or not capable? And if that's not how you feel about other people, do you not deserve the same courtesy that you would give anyone else?
SWB 40:58 Oof, ooh, Jen, this comes up so often in coaching conversations. It's like, "Well, no, never think that about other people!"
JD 41:06 Mm-hmm.
SWB 41:06 "But me, yeah, I'm terrible. I'm interrupting. Other people, no, they're fine. They're, they're just asking good questions." I think that's so important here. You know, I think in this scenario to, you know, something I would really want to suggest to V is, like, what would it look like to have a conversation with your manager or with somebody on the team about this? Like, "Hey, I'm worrying about this. I'm worried that I'm asking a lot of questions. Here's what I'm trying to do: I'm trying to get information and get up to speed. What does it feel like from your perspective?"
41:40 Because right now, it sounds like, again, all those stories in their head, which again, we are all writing stories in our head all the time. But right now, that's kind of the only story is the one that's in V's head. And so I think it might be really useful to hear somebody else's perspective. What is your manager or somebody else who's in these meetings, what do they think? What's their perception of what it's been like so far? And also, what would it look like to ask them for support in figuring out what the best way is for you to get your needs met?
42:08 Because that's what you really have here, right? You have these underlying needs to gather information and get up to speed. And of course, you have those. Those are very logical needs. If the way that you're doing it right now isn't optimal for the team, okay, that's fine. But the needs are still there. So what would it look like to meet those needs in a different way? And I think, checking in with other people and having that what I think of as, like, a meta conversation, which is like, "Hey, I've been worrying about X, what do you think? What's it like on your side?" It's a little hard to start that; it feels awkward sometimes because it's like, we're not used to having those conversations most of us. But once you do, it's so freeing, because this track in your head isn't being like, "What are they thinking right now? Oh, my gosh, do they think I'm asking too many...?"
42:55 Because, you know, because they told you what they think. And you don't have to write that story. And I just think sometimes like allowing yourself to do the awkward part of starting that conversation will just make a whole lot of stuff easier.
JD 43:07 Yeah. And V didn't mention if they're kind of the only person on the new team, or if everybody started at once, but I'm also curious if some of this holding back of your questions or help you need is something that other people on the team are doing, too.
SWB 43:26 Yes.
JD 43:26 And that sort of self-advocacy could be an opening to give other people permission to not have to have all the answers or be confused about what's going on and also feel more comfortable speaking up.
SWB 43:39 Oh, my gosh, yes, I can think of really specific scenarios where I was really afraid that I was being difficult because I was asking a hard question, or because maybe I pushed back on something, or I was like, "Oh, I'm uncomfortable with this," and then later people privately came to me, and they said, "Thank you so much for saying something. I was feeling the same way, and I was scared to speak up," or "I was scared to ask." And that's not always the case. You could be the only one with that question, and that's also still valid. Like, you still deserve to have questions. But know that like, there may be people who are quietly thanking you for being that person. Or once you start asking those questions and getting your needs met, it might create more space for them to ask theirs and to feel like that's an easier thing to do. So I really love that approach because it's like self-advocacy that actually turns into just advocacy for everybody.
JD 44:27 Yeah. And this dilemma is such a good example of sometimes we do experience self-advocacy where we need to kind of defend ourselves against people's bad behavior or violations of our boundaries, but then sometimes self-advocacy in situations like this just means letting people know that there's something you need and figuring out a way to get that met. It could be far more simple and less stressful than you could have even imagined.
SWB 45:01 Oh my gosh, that's one of my favorite things is when people realize that they can express a need or set a boundary. They do it, and then they come back and like, how did it go? And they're like, "It was fine." And not, I mean, nobody threw them a parade for setting the boundary or expressing the need, but there was a problem. Nothing broke, nobody got mad at them. So oftentimes, we've kind of built up the stress level in our head, and maybe that's from past experience. Maybe that's because we live in a culture that doesn't like to respect boundaries.
45:32 But for whatever reason, we can really build it up in our head, and think that it's gonna be this huge deal to say something. And then when we actually do say, "Hey, I have a need, and I would really like your help getting that need met." People go, "Oh, yeah, that makes total sense. Let's figure that out together." And it's just like, we've been building it up for weeks in our heads, and then it's anticlimactic. And that's actually really good. And so I want people to really hold onto that idea that that can happen. It happens all the time, then to internalize that and be like, "Oh, yeah, sometimes I can express a need or set a boundary. And like, the Earth doesn't stop spinning, nothing crumbles. It's fine.
JD 46:09 Yeah. Sara, I feel like I've had so many conversations with you about this because, to let everybody know, I am someone who often struggles with feeling similar to V where I want to jump in and be the helper and support everybody but like, God forbid, I ask for anything from anyone. It means that everyone is going to judge me or disappear from my life because I'm too much. And I'm thinking of how many times, Sara, I've come to you having kind of worked through all of these potential scenarios or expectations about how stressful it's going to be to ask for a need and then let you know how it went after and it's like, "Oh yeah, that was easy."
SWB 46:57 Oh, gosh, I hope that's something that everybody takes away. Sometimes you express a need or set a boundary, and it's actually so much easier than you think it's gonna be.
JD 47:07 I think that is the perfect note to end on.
JD 47:18 That's it for our second episode. Per My Last Email is a production of Active Voice. Check us out at https://www.activevoicehq.com/ and get all the past episodes show notes and full transcripts for Per My Last Email at https://pmleshow.com/. This episode was produced by Emily Duncan. Our theme music is "(I'm a) Modern Woman" by Maria T. Buy her album at https://thisismariat.bandcamp.com/. Thank you to everyone who submitted their story for today's show. And thank you for listening. If you've got a work dilemma eating away at you, send it over to us. Head to https://pmleshow.com/ to submit your story. Thanks in advance!