Undermining, nitpicking, and gaslighting, oh my!
Our letter writers today are really going through it—public undermining, misogyny, gaslighting, intense micromanagement. So how can you speak up or push back when your manager is making you miserable? And what if it feels pointless to even try? Sara and Jen jump in with tools for holding difficult, but healthy, conversations with your manager—and also how to avoid letting bad managers suck up all the space in your life.
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Got a work situation eating away at you? Send it to us! Submit your dilemma at PMLEshow.com.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:00 The thing about needs is that we need them. We need them, and when we don't get them met in direct and healthy ways, we'll often attempt to get them met in roundabout ways. We'll get them met at somebody else's expense.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:31 Okay, Jen, I have the perfect way to start the show.
Jen Dionisio 0:34 What is it?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:35 I want to talk to our listeners for a second.
Jen Dionisio 0:37 Ooh.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:38 Hey, there. I see you. I don't actually see you. But I know you're listening. If you've been listening to this show, and you've been thinking, "Huh, this makes me think. This is helpful," have you ever considered sending us a dilemma? Because I'll tell you what—we love doing this show. And the thing that makes it great is hearing from all kinds of people with all kinds of weird work stuff. Whether it's the kind of like goofy, funny, zany, "I can't believe this even happened" kind of stuff. Or the questions that really make you stop and think and wonder, "Is this the best it can be?" No matter what kind of dilemma you have, we would love to hear from you. So if that's something that sounds a little interesting to you, if some situation comes to mind, send us a note. If you go to https://pmleshow.com/ you will see a little link at the top that says submit a dilemma. Hit that and tell us your story.
Jen Dionisio 1:31 We really want to hear them. Unless, you know, maybe you're all just happy at work now.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 1:39 Oh, someday maybe I won't laugh at a comment like that so much. But today is not the day.
Jen Dionisio 1:44 That's a LOL sob if I've ever heard one. All right, friends. Well, hello, and welcome to Per My Last Email, the show about what to do when work gets weird. Because it gets weird. I'm Jen Dionisio.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 1:58 And I'm Sara Wachter-Boettcher.
Jen Dionisio 1:59 So Sara, since it seems like there may be some work challenges still affecting people, what are we talking about today?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 2:08 Okay, today's dilemmas are a real treat. They're about manager relationships. Yeah. And they're more specifically about how to handle things like conflict and frustration with your organization and your boss.
Jen Dionisio 2:23 That sounds lighthearted.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 2:25 Yeah, it's the two things people love the most, right: conflict and managers.
Jen Dionisio 2:28 Like peas and carrots constantly.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 2:31 Okay, well, you know, I've been thinking a lot about conflict and communication breakdowns lately. And something I've noticed, I'm curious if you've noticed this too, is that I feel like often when people talk about their conflict style, they talk about it like it's like a personality trait. Like I hear people say things like, "Oh, I'm just conflict avoidant. I don't do conflict." And I've realized lately, like, I don't actually believe that. Like, I don't believe that that's who you are. I think so much about how we deal with conflict or don't deal with conflict, it's really coming back to what are the things we saw growing up, like what was modeled to us? What were the messages that we were receiving culturally?
And those things, they create a lot of ingrained patterns, sure, but they're not our personality. They're our habits, and they're our norms. And so one of the things I've been really kind of kicking around in my head is like, "Okay, I think we need to get more honest about what's going on here." It's not that we like can't have hard conversations, or that we're like, simply a person who doesn't do that.
Jen Dionisio 3:31 Yeah, there's no gene for it.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 3:33 Right! And it's more like, "Oh, these are scary." It's scary to talk about difficult situations. It's scary to name what's actually going on. And it's scary to like, worry that you're going to be perceived as difficult. And I think so often, the biggest thing is like, we're afraid of being rejected, you know, that we're not going to be accepted or liked or loved if we actually talk about something that's not working. And at the same time, it's like, those might be valid fears. But when we avoid talking about hard things I definitely have seen it gets so much worse over time. And it really made me rethink my own relationship to conflict.
Jen Dionisio 4:15 Yeah, you know, I was just talking to someone who is a good example of how avoiding those hard conversations actually can make things much worse. So this person's workplace has been under a whole lot of stress. So their manager has been putting a lot of pressure on her and the team that reports into her. And so she's kind of constantly in this sort of peacekeeper, placating, protecting mode between her own manager and her own direct reports. But while she's been trying to like caretake for all sides, actually her manager's pressure has just kind of fully demoralized everyone to a point where that's not gonna work. They don't care anymore. They're angry, they're exhausted, and they're frustrated. And so she decided to finally say the really hard thing to her boss, which is, "No, we're not advocating anymore. We're not proving our value anymore. We are doing our jobs the way we have been doing our jobs. And that is enough."
And that conversation, while it hasn't magically solved everything, has actually turned down the temperature quite a bit, because the grand-manager is trying to protect everyone too, it's just coming out in a very different way. And so by finally saying something about it, they've been able to open up much more productive conversations about how they can collectively manage the stress of what's happening in the bigger org without doing more damage to each other in the process.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 5:51 Yeah, I love success stories like that of having the hard conversation and then things get easier. Not easy. Not easy, but easier.
Jen Dionisio 6:00 Exactly. And it also shows that there are a lot of good intentions that get expressed quite poorly. And you might never know that if you don't ask.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 6:12 Mmm, you are speaking my language today. I think it's time actually to get into a dilemma. Let's bring this to somebody's real problem.
Jen Dionisio 6:18 Oh, love it.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 6:23 Okay, here's our first question:
UC 6:26 I’m a Creative Lead who is reporting into a Marketing Lead who has a background in sales and account management. She wanted to be a designer and photographer but was forced into business and marketing by her parents. This frustration comes through a lot in our interactions where she micromanages or tries to assert herself as the creative expert.
It feels a bit toxic and while I know it’s not personal, it makes working together really difficult. She often seems to undermine my suggestions and often begins designing or changing the music in a video to make a point. It comes across as though she doesn’t trust my direction and that she doesn’t want to seem like she doesn’t have all of my experience. It’s also confusing because she has much bigger priorities to be concerned with than changing the font size by a pixel. How do I collaborate with a Marketing Lead who actually wants to be a Creative Lead?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 7:14 Oof, okay. So Jen, I want to call this listener you see for "undermined creative."
Jen Dionisio 7:19 Ooh yeah.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 7:20 What do you think UC should do about this boss who's undermining their expertise and micromanaging their work?
Jen Dionisio 7:26 Yeah. So there are a lot of ways that I think UC could approach this, but it's always I think it makes sense for UC to start with understanding themselves. And I do hear some positive things in here, like, UC has acknowledged that they're pretty confident that their boss's behavior isn't personal. And they don't actually seem to express any doubt about the work that they're doing. Even if their boss is frequently kind of fiddling with it, it's not like, "Does this mean I'm a bad, you know, designer?" But despite that, there's still a really bad and toxic feeling of like, "This is really making this job miserable for me."
So UC, let's check in with our old friend BICEPS, which is the framework that Paloma Medina created that helps us assess our core needs at work. I think starting with needs is really going to help you understand what about your boss's approach to collaboration is really causing the most harm and needs the most action put to it.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 8:36 So in case you're new here, because it's come up a few times, BICEPS stands for Belonging, so feeling like you're part of something. Improvement, which is about progress, or growth. Choice or autonomy. Equality, also known as fairness, like equitable access, equitable treatment. Predictability, not feeling like the rug is being pulled out from you. And then Significance, feeling like you're part of something important.
Jen Dionisio 9:04 So UC when your boss is kind of micromanaging you or jumping in and acting like she's the one who is the expert in the room, what of these needs feels most like it's in violation for you? I suspect there could be a few different ones. Maybe it's equality and fairness, because it's like, "I have this job and somebody is trying to take over it." It can also be that sort of choice and autonomy piece where it's like, "Well, do I just have to go along with what my boss says, even though it's against my professional expertise and opinion?" Or significance, like, "What am I even doing if I'm just having my work revised all the time?"
So I think by knowing which of these needs is feeling unmet for you, it'll help you identify kind of more specifically what changes you need to see and how you might communicate them to your boss. And I think it's helpful too to remember that your boss from what you shared probably has some unmet needs, too. And what it feels like is that her attempts to meet those are unintentionally triggering yours.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 10:13 That's such a good point. And I think it's really worth pausing on because so often when we're upset at somebody else's behavior, we start really like assigning all kinds of motivations to them, like "They're out to get me. They don't trust me." But that's not really what this is about. This is about you and your needs, UC. And the thing about needs is that we need them. We need them, and when we don't get them met in direct unhealthy ways, we'll often attempt to get them met in roundabout ways. We'll get them met at somebody else's expense. And it sounds like that's what's happening with UC's boss.
And now UC, I don't want that to also be happening with you. And I say this thing about needs not because I want to give UC's boss a pass, Like they're still responsible for their actions toward you, UC. They're responsible for undermining you and taking away your decision-making authority as creative lead. That's on them. But when we start to see their actions as inappropriate attempts to get their own needs met, that can really help us avoid turning them into our enemy here.
Jen Dionisio 11:18 Yeah, you're so right, Sara. And UC, like, if you approach this issue as a problem for you and your boss to solve together, it might actually give you both some space to create a collaboration style that takes into account and supports both of your needs. And that concept of like, having space between you is really important when two people are in conflict. Because you can't fix that your manager may prefer to have your job than her own. But together, the two of you can address what seems to be the neutral issue in this dynamic, which is how you collaborate, and nothing more. So how can you collaborate in a way that meets your needs, and hers? You could guess, but a conversation is going to be much more likely to be productive, and result in real change.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 12:10 So you're saying UC has to actually like, talk about it?
Jen Dionisio 12:13 To her boss.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 12:15 Oh, it's the worst.
Jen Dionisio 12:16 Oh, I know. But luckily, Sara, you created a model that I think, help UC out. So that is the SURE model, which is a framework for speaking up about those very needs we just discussed. And it basically breaks down a conversation into four steps. And it not only aims to help you share what you're thinking and feeling, but to also kind of back those up with clear requests and action steps for how to move forward together. So step one, pretty simple: it's naming the situation, using "I" statements and direct observations, kind of keeping feelings and emotions back, and talking about what you're observing and seeing.
The second step is then to state your unmet need. What's the impact that this is having? How is it making your sense of belonging or improvement or choice or any of those other needs feel like they're being met or not met day-to-day? If we were to do this in practice, I might say something like, "Hi, boss. In our last three meetings, I've noticed that we've had different ideas for how to approach X, Y, and Z. I love having your input. But I feel like my ideas are not often the ones that end up making the final cut. And I'm a little bit worried that it's making me seem inexperienced and junior in front of the team."
It's focused on your own observations. It is focused on how you're feeling. It's not focused on what that other person is doing bad or wrong. It's simply kind of describing the situation as is. And then you take a little break there, because that it is time to use one of those skills that is so important and incredibly hard: just listening to what your boss has to say about that information.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 14:09 Yeah, yeah. Like this is the moment where you then want to get curious, which is sometimes hard, especially if we've already kind of written a story in our head about why somebody's doing what they're doing. Which, here in this situation, it does seem like that something that UC has done a little bit. Like, they think it's because their boss wanted to be a creative person and isn't.
And that might be true or untrue. But I think it's really helpful to almost set that aside and say, "I don't know why she's doing what she's doing. I know that what she's doing isn't working for me. But let me get curious about what's going on with her. What does it look like from her side? What are the fears that she has? What are the needs that she has? What is driving her behavior?"
Start asking some questions that are open, not questions like "Why do you keep doing X?" and more questions that are like, "Oh, what's important to you when we're making some of these creative decisions? What's leading you to decide some of these things differently than I've decided them?" This isn't about proving to her that you are right and she is wrong. This is about actually trying to understand where she is coming from so that you can come up with some way to move forward where everybody might be a little happier.
Jen Dionisio 15:24 Right. And Sara, I think it's such a good point that it's like, we so often approach these conversations from this, like, "I'm going to win it or I'm going to lose it. Either I'm going to get my boss to confess to the fact that they have been trying to sabotage me because they want to be doing this role. And if they don't admit to that, then it means that they are lying to me and I am screwed."
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 15:46 Mhmm, yeah, or we're like, "How do I make them see it my way?" And it's ooh, you may or may not make them see anything.
Jen Dionisio 15:54 Yeah, and even if you do win, then what? There is still the thing of changing what's going on. So to recap: we have covered the first two steps in the SURE model, which is naming the situation and naming the unmet need. Now we're gonna go to the third step, which is the R: request. So this is where you're simply going to state your request. And that can go in a couple of different directions. It may be that you actually have no idea what you want your boss to do to make this better. And so the request may be as simple as, "Can we get some time on the calendar together to talk about how we collaborate and how we want to do it moving forward?"
Or if you already have some ideas of like, what could make this less painful for you, maybe it's saying like, "My request is, if you have feedback about my work, I would be really grateful if you shared that with me before we were in a group so that I don't look like I'm making mistakes in front of these other people." So again, it kind of shows where whatever that particular need is is really going to influence what you're asking for here. So then we go into the last step, and that is the E in the SURE model, which is for expectations, and setting them together so that your request doesn't just kind of fall into a vacuum where it's out there, and nothing's happening about it.
So when it comes to expectations, this is again, something for you to to work on together. When is that brainstorming meeting going to happen so that you know that there is going to be time coming where you're going to work on this challenge? What are the changes or efforts that you are expecting to see, and how will you measure if things are improving or not? So in practice, that might sound like, "Okay, so I would really appreciate if we could brainstorm together about how and when it would be most helpful to incorporate feedback so that we're more of a united front in meetings. It looks like we're both free on Friday afternoon. Could I book us for an hour to really workshop our plan? How does that feel to you?"
Usually, in the case of a pattern that's been going on a long time, it doesn't mean you're going to like set up this meeting, have this one-on-one planning session and have it all be resolved and done. But that SURE model, following it can really help you open up a conversation that is driven toward collaborative solutions. And it can help you continue to address the things that you notice as they appear.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 18:39 Yeah, that last part is actually, I think, really important, because it's almost like, once you've sort of named the thing that you keep seeing happening, which is you know, "I keep noticing that my ideas are getting overruled. I keep noticing that that feedback is happening in the group, not one-on-one in advance," those kinds of things, now they're on the table. And so the next time you mentioned them, it's like, "Hey, remember that thing we talked about? I noticed in today's meeting that happened again. Can we talk about what was going on there?"
Because I think that that gives people this sort of foundation, and so often, you know, it feels like such a hard conversation to start. But it gets so much easier once you've done it once to keep coming back around to it and to start recognizing that, you know, these are not, like you said, one-and-done situations, but they're more like ongoing shifts in how we want to treat one another or how we want to work together.
Jen Dionisio 19:35 You know, Sara, as you were saying that it actually made me think too so often when we don't have these conversations and we hold them in, when we finally do say something, instead of having a calm, curious conversation using something like a SURE model, we blow up or explode.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 19:52 Yeah.
Jen Dionisio 19:53 And then the fallout of that typically is far trickier than the fallout of asking to have a need met in a calm and curious way.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 20:03 Right. Because you rock up all hot, and you're like, "You're always making the decisions, and I'm the creative lead, and you just don't trust me. And you just think that you can do creative work, but you can't do creative work. You're just this marketing person." Whatever, right? It's like, guess what that's gonna do? That is going to trigger a whole lot of feelings in that other party, and they are going to be so unlikely to actually hear what's going on with you, what you need, why this isn't working for you because you've just put them on defense.
Jen Dionisio 20:34 Yeah. And possibly hurt one of their needs, too.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 20:38 Right! And also, you're just probably wrong, right? Like, as much as we think we kind of armchair analyze why other people do what they do, we just don't always get it right. Or we get it partially right, but then they hear it, and they're like, "No, that's not me." And suddenly, you've created more disconnection instead of less.
Now, Jen, all of this great, but I will say it assumes some level of good faith from their boss. So let's say that even if UC really does all this pre-work, they show up calm, they go through the SURE model, right? They've really thought about it. Let's say that they still get a defensive or diminishing response from their boss when they bring it up. Then what?
Jen Dionisio 21:20 I really hope that that is not the case for you, UC, but yeah, it can be. You know, and I've even seen situations where in the moment, that defensiveness pops up in the other person, and then say, the next day, or even like an hour later, it's like, "Whew, let's try that again." But also, I like to think all managers are reasonable, because I was a reasonable manager. But that is not true. So I think that here is where UC knowing their particular flavor of core needs is still incredibly valuable, right? Because your boss isn't the only person necessarily that may be able to help you meet that need.
So if they're a dead end, it's time to try some other avenues that might involve having conversations with other people on your team who also might be eager to find better ways for everyone to collaborate. Or it may be finding other opportunities to demonstrate your expertise and your knowledge outside of those regular meetings so that you're feeling a little less tender when those like tweaks are coming up in your planning meetings week-to-week. Those are just a couple of suggestions. But I do just kind of want to reiterate that like, it can be really tempting to start by trying to work around someone or something.
But it is truly most ideal if you can work together. So while, yes, you can find other ways to get your needs met, I do truly believe that by being direct with your boss without being accusatory, without jumping to any assumptions or cognitive distortions that may be playing out, just by saying the hard thing, you are really showing your professionalism and courage and confidence. And that's something you and your boss should be really proud of whether they recognize it or not.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 23:16 Right, that part is meaningful, because I also think that this is how we find out who is interested in building a mutually respectful relationship. and who isn't. If UC's boss is caught up in their own baggage, they might not realize how much it's impacting UC. This could be a powerful wake up call for them. But if it's not, if they're just fine with their behavior, and they think you just need to suck it up and take it and that they're in charge anyway, so you should just do your little creative work and let them make the big decisions, that's painful, UC, but I also think that's information, because it tells you that they're not willing to do their part.
And that sucks. But when you know that, what you end up with is clarity. And I think that that clarity gives you some freedom, because you will know that you did your part, you showed up in a calm and curious way. You named the situation, you made your requests, right? You did all of it. And you will be confident that it is them choosing not to do their part. And that means that instead of continuing to bang your head against the wall, like, trying to convince them to change or trying this or trying that, "And maybe if I work harder, and maybe if I am more of this, and I'm more accommodating, and I'm nicer, whatever," you can send yourself down all of these paths, right?
And instead of doing that, you can kind of redirect your energy. And that could be toward talking to other people in the organization and building firmer alliances. It could be toward finding a new job. It could be toward caring less about work and putting more energy into other aspects of your life. It could be almost anything, but it basically just frees that part of you up.
Jen Dionisio 24:57 UC, you got this. Truly. Speaking up is the first and really important step and I know you can do it. And if that feels terrifying, rehearse with a friend, practice out loud to your dog. I do that. But if this needs to change for you to feel satisfied at work, it feels like it's probably a risk worth taking.
Emily Duncan 25:21 Hi, folks, it's Emily, PMLE's producer. So often when we read your dilemmas, we wish we could go even deeper with you in real time, not only to unpack your situation, but to help you navigate it over time. If you could use that kind of help, good news: Sara and Jen offer one-on-one coaching, and they have some open spots for new clients this spring. Want to learn more? Go to https://www.activevoicehq.com/coaching. Again, that's https://www.activevoicehq.com/coaching.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 25:56 Hey, Jen, you ready for our next dilemma?
Jen Dionisio 25:58 I am.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 25:59 Okay, here goes:
NO 26:01 I feel my manager is misogynistic and is gaslighting me. I’m not heard and he has dismissed concerns I’ve brought to him by saying I’m too emotional. How can I navigate the oppression in corporate settings when it’s the majority opinion?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 26:15 Oof, yikes. So we have a big question here. And I'll admit it is light on details. But Jen, I really wanted us to attempt to answer it anyway. Because I think a lot of listeners will relate to it. I mean, I know I personally started kind of immediately filling in the blanks for myself based off of the situations I've been in in my own life. So let's call this listener NO, for "navigating oppression." Also, because it's fun to just say "no."
Jen Dionisio 26:42 Yeah.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 26:43 Yeah. So Jen, how can NO fix the misogyny and oppression in their workplace?
Jen Dionisio 26:49 Well, there are three easy steps, and we have a framework for it. Just kidding. Oh my gosh, I really wish I had the answer.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 26:58 No, I know. Okay. So just state upfront: there is not going to be a perfect answer to this. There are not three easy steps. NO, you haven't done it yet because it's not something you can just do. That said, where do you want to take this one, Jen?
Jen Dionisio 27:12 Yeah. I agree. Like, yeah, you know, I think this question is so much bigger than just even that question. And I might even argue that like, this is the deeper question to almost all the questions that we get in the show too. All the questions that we hear from our clients and our group work, and it's kind of like, "What do I do in this big system?" And I just want to say, although I hope it doesn't need to be said, you shouldn't have to do this work. I don't want you to have to do this work. It should be the corporate culture that gets fixed, not people. And yet, that's not happening.
And it's not that it's just not happening in design and tech. As nihilistic as it sounds, there's nowhere to go because it's happening everywhere. You know, when I talk to my friends who work in nonprofits, or schools, or hospitals, or museums, like it is all the same shitty systems with different names. So to some degree, learning how to navigate oppression at work is inevitable, because it's the same set of skills we have to use to navigate oppression in the world.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 28:35 Right. Like we're really talking about, "How do I live in a deeply imperfect world that is harming me?" And like, that is not a fair question that we have to keep coming back to. It's not fair that we have to build personal resilience to harm instead of just like having a system that does not harm us. But the other side of that is that this is the world. This is where we live. And there's a question that's like, "Well, how do we want to live?"
And I think that if we want to find a way to live our lives and be okay, it means we do have to do some of this personal work ourselves. Because ultimately, what I've really come to see is that this personal work we can do is sort of the first step to stepping outside of these systems. And I like to think of it as like, deprogramming ourselves. Learning to see all of those things that have been kind of rendered invisible, like all the capitalism and the sexism and the racism and ableism, seeing all of it, and seeing them for what they are, which is a system designed to make you feel small and designed to make you feel like you're a problem and designed to keep you divided from your peers and from your community.
Because NO, if you are anything like me and Jen or anything like the people we've worked with, those messages about you not being good enough or it being all your fault, they probably coursed through your veins in ways that you might not even realize. If you have any of those internal voices that say things like, "Maybe you are too emotional. You should be nicer. Be easier to work with, don't make a scene, don't take up space. Don't be too much." If those voices come up for you, I think that's the place to start. I think it's really helpful to start to unpack, "Well, what are those messages that are already in my head regardless of what I'm hearing at work? Like, what's already in here? Where did it come from? And what's its function? What's it doing there?"
Because you see, when those voices are not explored, when we don't understand them, and even have some compassion for those inner critic voices that always pipe up, we're so much more susceptible to other people's biased and shitty opinions about us. So like, for example, when your manager says, "You're too emotional," if you haven't done some of your own internal work to understand the beliefs you might already have about yourself, the like, inner critic, voices that already pipe up for you, that can really trigger a whole spiral of stuff in your head.
But once you've done some of that work to deprogram yourself, you might find that getting those comments, it still sucks, because they're not kind. But it's not so immediately destabilizing, because it doesn't become just like evidence of what that inner voice already believes. Instead, it's like something you can pause, and like, look at, and you can kind of turn it over in your hands and maybe even get curious about it. So instead of it becoming one more source of shame, you can start to ask yourself questions like, "Okay, this person says I'm being too emotional. What are the behaviors that I've been exhibiting? Where are they coming from? Is there a part of this that is mine? And if so, what is it? And what part of this might be there's? What part of this is my boss's bias here?"
And that whole conversation you can have with yourself, that is only possible once you've done some of that work to kind of deprogram and to really see the systems we're operating in. Because otherwise, everything just feels like too high stakes, too stressful, too, you know, fight/flight all the time. And so that is the place I would start.
Jen Dionisio 32:15 Yeah, you know, and I think it goes back to the previous question, too, which is that concept of space. It's not only so valuable when you're in dialogue with other people, but it's also really important when you are in dialogue with yourself. And—
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 32:31 Yeah.
Jen Dionisio 32:32 I know, it's a skill that I really wish I had learned a long time ago, instead of in the past few years. Most of my career, like I don't know, probably my whole life, my automatic reaction to any kind of criticism, or diminishment, or like, mild disagreement was to believe like, "I'm the problem, I'm at fault. And I better fix it. And I better fix myself, or else everyone will know that I am defective. And I'm going to be in deep shit." And so I'd like fawn and fuss and just constantly go into fix-it mode without ever taking that pause and giving myself that space to say, "Hold up. What if this isn't about you?"
And then when you start to ask those questions, it really gives you an opportunity to do something that I absolutely love and is an important coaching tool that's called reframing. Reframing lets you look at a situation from a very different lens than what might be your default, or, you know, the voice of your conditioning or the voice of the world outside. And it lets you see that there are perspectives beyond that sort of majority opinion that you mentioned. And it also lets you see that your perspective is no less valid just because your boss or other colleagues don't see it, too.
When we think about kind of using reframing in relation to NO's situation, something, NO, I would recommend you do is to start thinking of the last time you came to your boss with a concern that was dismissed as too emotional. You can check out and reflect on what was the substance of your message, how you delivered it, why it mattered so much to you. And like, again, like what need were you trying to get met there? And as part of that reframing process, I might suggest that you imagine sharing this same concern in the same way with somebody that you really trust. Or imagine sharing that concern in the same way with someone who you know, shares your values.
Or imagine having that same conversation in that same way with someone who you know, is also really agitating for change. You could also imagine sharing this with versions of yourself in different contexts. Like I always love to check in with my wild, rebellious little teenage self who loved to burn things down because that is no longer by default. It was at some point and it went away. Or you can check in with a version of yourself who has seen this concern ignored before and paid the price for not continuing to push the issue. This is kind of like your research phase: "What are the various ways that different people or parts of me might see how I am speaking to this issue?" so that then you can make an educated decision on what you actually believe is and isn't true.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 35:39 Right. I love that as an educated decision on what is or isn't true, meaning like, "Okay, this person has a perception of me. What do I make of that? Can I slow down and make sense of it and decide is this something I want to take in or not? And in which ways?" Now, so far, though, I think we've really covered kind of that personal side. And I think that's good, because I think what it does is it helps us kind of say, "Okay, what's within my control here?"
And in this scenario, like, how NO interprets the situation, how NO interprets this feedback. Whether they take it or don't take it. All of that's their, that's their control. And again, NO, you shouldn't have to do all this work in order to cope with the world. None of us should. But the reason that we start here is that given the oppressive systems we're in, these systems that, as you say, have gaslight you, figuring out how to stop buying into the gaslighting is always the first step. And it's actually what prepares us for the second step. So Jen, what's the second step here?
Jen Dionisio 36:47 Oh, it is turning into a framework. No, just kidding. Yeah. So NO, once you know, you've done that personal work, you are equipped to then more effectively evaluate and take action wherever you are. Because at that point, you are aware of what's yours and what isn't. You can choose how you want to act, or how you don't want to act. And you can do that from that same place of calm and clarity and curiosity we've been talking about, instead of doing it in a stress response that might make you just go to a very extreme place where you're just kind of like fighting super harder, shutting down, and fleeing the conversation.
So for example, like, again, looking at this situation with your manager, let's say you're coming to him with a concern and being dismissed. So instead of wondering what you did wrong, you can now take all of that energy that would have churned in your head, that would have just kind of sat with you for possibly days or weeks, and you can move that energy into thinking about what other choices you have available to you. Is there someone else you can escalate to? Is there somebody who may be safer than one person or another to escalate to? Are there any other kind of venues or opportunities that will let you solve some of these problems you're seeing and make change without having to involve your boss at all?
And it also lets you start to really kind of make some decisions about what is important enough to you for you to take some of those risks? What are the battles that you will hate yourself for not engaging in? And like what are the ones where you have to step back in order to protect yourself and your time and maybe let somebody else take those up? It's not a pure process, like those choices aren't always going to make you feel fully satisfied. And again, like some of these choices, depending on how much you care, how much urgency and harm you're seeing, might end up being quite risky to your long-term stability or security at this organization. And yet, based on your situation, and this sort of messed up context that all of us live in, really kind of choosing how and when, and why you want to act is the most important option available to all of us in and out of work.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 39:20 Can I add in there that I think that this is something that is so important and often really skipped over is this idea of like finding choice. And we often skip that because we think like, "Well, I don't really have choices. I'm stuck in this system," right? Like, "I'm not the one who's choosing everything to be oppressive. It's just the thing that's happening to me." And I think all of that is true. But we still have choices about what we want to do given the system around us. And I think what you're really pointing to is finding what those choices are and deciding which ones are going to be the best for you. And what I mean by the best is not like the best in the world, the best choice one can imagine, but the best currently available option.
Jen Dionisio 40:07 Really lowering those stakes.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 40:08 Yeah. And that's hard, right? Because you have to make choices where you're like, "Hmm, okay, I could go escalate this issue. And that's a risk because speaking up to HR is not always safe. I could go find some friends in the organization. I could decide not to speak up. I don't feel awesome about any of these, but which is the one that's going to feel like most in service of my values, least amount of risk, or only the kinds of risks I can handle?" And even that just kind of puts you back in the driver's seat of your life.
Jen Dionisio 40:35 Yeah, it's true. It's like you are not the passive participant here, you're choosing what like barriers you want to just like headfirst ram into and which ones maybe you do want to find kind of a detour or swerve around. And Sara, you mentioned people, other people, in one of those possible choices. And I'm glad you said that, because I think so often, when we find ourselves feeling this sort of like existential pain, we feel it as individual people who are very alone.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 41:08 Yeah.
Jen Dionisio 41:08 But it's so unlikely. And I think, Sara, you and I, and the Active Voice community, and all of the people listening right now are a huge reminder that there are probably a lot of other people in your org, on your team, who are also doing this personal work and are also wondering if they're the only ones feeling this way, and who also might be in desperate need of like, seeing how other people are navigating this and getting that support. So, you know, I think another really empowering way to kind of take that driver's seat, again, is to find those people. Really take an active, meaningful role in supporting each other and protecting each other and amplifying each other and, if possible, making some real change together.
Because like, no one person is ever going to fix the system alone. And yeah, like a like-minded group of 10 people in 100,000-person organization might not be able to also fix the entire system of that organization. But you may be able to make your part of the organization a little kinder and more equitable that then has broader influence over time, too. So that's a lot of what you can do right now within your org. But I do also want to flag that another choice you have is to say, "I don't want to be here anymore." Just because everywhere is infused with some level of bias doesn't mean that your company isn't particularly terrible at it.
And that doesn't mean you should just settle for what you have because there's nothing better out there. You know, if your environment is truly toxic, if those needs that you have are really being corroded day after day, get out and leave. There are organizations and sometimes even teams that are far, far worse than others. And in that sort of self-reflection period, you can decide what your red lines are for what will allow you to stay or go. You know, what will you tolerate or not tolerate? You know, what are those deal breakers? They're gonna be different for everyone. So it's really important to know your own.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 43:41 You know, NO, ultimately, I think the number one thing that we want you to take away from this is that it's hard to live in an oppressive system. It taxes our brains, it taxes our nervous systems. And so your most important job here is to find ways to take care of yourself.
Jen Dionisio 43:59 Yeah. And that could mean so many things: focusing your energy on the parts of your work that do make you feel proud or have impact. It could mean taking care of yourself by knowing and holding your boundaries. Or it can be something like setting meaningful goals that don't rely on anybody else's involvement so that you know, they are things that you can pursue, regardless of what's happening outside of you.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 44:27 And also just remembering that even though oppressive systems persist, and even though they can feel so all-encompassing, they're only one part of the story. Because the universe includes a lot of other stuff too. There's still beauty and joy and hope out there. And NO, those things can still be yours. And we don't have to wait for the system to change or for the oppression to go away in order for us to claim them. That's what I think I really want you to know because NO, you asked us: "How do I navigate the oppression in corporate settings when it feels so dominant and so inescapable?"
But I think the biggest answer is just to not let that be the full story of your life. And to instead orient as much of you as possible somewhere else, to the things that make you feel whole, and seen, and alive. I was just reading this really stunning essay from Alicia Ostarello. We'll put it in the show notes. So Alicia, she runs content design at Lyft. And she had this pretty harrowing experience with burnout and with really realizing problems in our economic system. And one of the things she talks about is what helped her start to heal. And she took a road trip from her house in California up to British Columbia. And there on Vancouver Island, she writes, "I spontaneously took my very first surf lesson, splashing around in the ocean and feeling vaguely terrified for my life. I felt boundless joy for the first time in a year and a half. And in doing so I could finally see a different life for myself. My body remembered something it had long forgotten: how to be in love with existence."
Jen Dionisio 46:17 Oh, god, that's beautiful. Sara, I'm so glad that you shared that story because I think it's easy for us to tell you sort of intellectually, all the ways that you may pursue hope or joy, but really kind of seeing it in action, I feel like is proof. It's proof that it's there. And I think we can all use that reminder that we have access to that love and connection, even if we don't quite know where it is yet.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 46:48 Right. And maybe yours isn't a surfing lesson. But maybe it is something like that, right? Like that's connecting with your body or connecting with nature or connecting with other people. Like those things that make you feel alive.
Jen Dionisio 47:02 So NO, I think maybe the final thought to end on is what makes you feel alive and connected and healed? And if you don't know, that's totally okay. I think a lot of us have lost that knowledge as life has just ground us down to tinier and tinier pieces. But finding sources of that joy might actually be the most important job any of us have. I mean, God, imagine that being your career: to give your life meaning and direction and ease. So, NO, I really hope that what we've shared gives you some strength in this situation. And I want you to know that we're here for you. We see you, and you can be too emotional with us any fucking time you want.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 48:02 Oh, oh, can you ever. People cry with me all the time, and I'm always like, "That's great."
Jen Dionisio 48:07 Get it out.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 48:08 Get it out.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 48:16
And that is it for this week's episode. Per My Last Email is a production of Active Voice. Check us out at https://www.activevoicehq.com/ and get all our past episodes show notes and full transcripts at https://pmleshow.com/. This episode was produced by Emily Duncan, and our theme music is (I'm A) Modern Woman by Maria T. Buy her album at https://thisismariat.bandcamp.com/. Thank you to Undermined Creative and Navigating Oppression for submitting your stories for today's show. And thank you all for listening. Once again, if you've got a work dilemma that's eating away at you, send it to us. We want it.ead over to https://pmleshow.com/ to submit your story. See you next time.