IC, senior strategist, team lead. What do you do when your title says a whole lot of nothing—but seems like it means everything?
Today’s episode is all about job titles—and all the weird feelings that come with them. Our first letter writer enjoys their work and is paid well, but feels like they’ve been leveled lower than their peers. Another is considering a “demotion” to manage burnout, but is worried about taking a long-term hit in their career. They’re turning to Sara and Jen to help them get unstuck—without racing back onto the corporate ladder.
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Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:00 Which part of you do you want to take the wheel right now? Is it the part of you that's afraid of being perceived as a failure, or somebody who's past their prime, or whatever it is that you're afraid of, whatever that nasty, cruel voice in your head happens to say to you? Is that the part you want at the wheel? Or would you rather have the part of you that's thinking about your well-being, that's thinking about healing, taking over the car?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:40 Hey, Jen, you ready to make a podcast?
Jen Dionisio 0:43 Nah, I think I'd rather wash my hair. Just kidding. I can't wait to dive in to today's episode. Want to do it?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:52 Hey, everyone. Welcome to Per My Last Email, the show about what to do when work gets weird. I'm Sara Wachter-Boettcher.
Jen Dionisio 0:58 And I'm Jen Dionisio.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 1:00 So Jen, what kind of weird are we talking about today?
Jen Dionisio 1:03 Well, today, we're going to talk about something that I know I have had some real strong feelings about over my career. So what we've heard are dilemmas related to things like job titles and leveling, and like how those apply to your ambitions.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 1:21 I have also had my share of angst over job titles and leveling. What's yours been like, Jen?
Jen Dionisio 1:26 You know, I feel like it was something that really plagued me for like the first half, maybe first 75% of my career. Like, if you look at my LinkedIn profile, I feel like it is just full of titles that make almost no sense when you actually look at the context of like, what my role was and what I was doing. I had this digital projects manager role that was like, not a project manager at all, because the "projects" was plural. And like those projects included what I felt like was like really high level stuff, like creating and leading strategy for the whole org's content and all of its digital systems.
And yet, I made almost no money. And when I left, my role was replaced by like three people, because it was such a big job. The most frustrating part, Sara, was that almost everyone else in my organization and department got all these fancy director titles off the bat. And I felt so resentful about that. And I really didn't expect to have a lot of feelings about that, especially because I loved all of my colleagues. But I ended up writing my boss this like three-page pitch about why I should be given a title change to director and a salary bump to match. And she just kind of sat on it for a couple of months until I got another job offer. And then suddenly, I was allowed to be a director, too. Hard pass, I quit.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 3:01 You know, I actually had a similar situation, although I was a little bit more junior. It's funny, I just remembered this as you were talking about that. So I was hired as a junior copywriter at an ad agency. I was like 23 years old. And pretty soon I was taking on like, more ownership of larger projects, larger accounts. And I was constantly being asked by various account teams to take over for this one senior writer because, well, I mean, because he really sucked. And I could get into all the ways that he did a terrible job and said, like weird, gross, sexist stuff, but I don't have time for that right now. But I was constantly being asked to take over his projects. And at the same time, I was still doing a bunch of junior jobs, like I was proofreading everything that we put out, like I was the last eyes on things. And so I made a case to advocate for a promotion to copywriter, and I really wanted to drop the junior off my title, like I did not like that feeling.
Jen Dionisio 3:58 Yeah.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 3:58 Okay, and so you know what I was told?
Jen Dionisio 4:00 What?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 4:01 I was told, "Yes, absolutely. Like, you've really proven yourself, you can totally have a promotion to junior copywriter." And I was like, "Wait, hold on. That's already my job title." Like I literally had business cards that said "junior copywriter" on them. They're like, "No, no, no, no, you're the proofreader. But you're going to be promoted to junior copywriter," and was like, "What do you think I've been doing since I've been here?"
Jen Dionisio 4:23 Oh, my God. "Do you know my name? My name is Sara."
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 4:27 And so that's the answer that I got. And then I started interviewing. And of course magically when I gave notice, you know what I was offered?
Jen Dionisio 4:36 Copywriter title?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 4:37 Copywriter title.
Jen Dionisio 4:39 Waiting to the last minute never compels people to want to stay.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 4:43 I know. So like you I left, and in my next job, titles were also messy for me. So I joined this other agency as a web writer. And remember, this was like 2007. This was a super forward-facing title at that particular moment in time. They had never had a web writer before, they didn't really know what to do with me. They knew they needed me. But it was kind of unclear how I fit into the broader picture for them. And so a lot of the jobs at this agency had a really clear promotion path, like you'd go from account coordinator to account manager to senior account manager to account director, or you'd go from like production designer to art director to senior art director to associate creative director.
But for those of us who were on like the digital side of this agency, which was a whole thing at that particular moment, in time, it was a lot less clear what the promotion path might look like, and you had job titles that seemed a little bit newfangled. And so what was really hard for me about that is it seemed like different people had different ideas about how senior I was, and particularly in comparison with the traditional creative team. And I'd love to say that that shouldn't have mattered, and it didn't matter, and I didn't care because I was doing great work. But you know, one of the owners was also the creative director. And so he tended to see what I did as like, inherently less important than what his people did. Because I was this web writer who was on digital, not part of creative, or like, weird dotted line, whatever.
Jen Dionisio 6:11 Yeah.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 6:12 And so that often led me to be treated as if I was more junior than I really was, and more junior than all the people on that team. And I was also really underpaid. And it was very hard to break out of that reputation, particularly because so much of the work I was doing was new to the agency. So they didn't necessarily know what to call it, even though I was more and more often coming in at the very beginning of projects, leading us through big strategy phases with clients, like what I was doing with serious stuff. So eventually, I kind of discovered that some people were calling themselves content strategists. And so I started advocating for that. And then ultimately turned that into the content strategy lead, and then some other stuff happened, and I became a weird director with like, seven different words in my title. But I was making it all up as I went, and I was trying to, like sell it in as I went. And so every single time, I had to, like pitch it. And there were so many moments where that lack of title or lack of clarity on my level, felt like it just made my job harder.
Jen Dionisio 7:13 You know, it's kind of like where you said, you don't want like the idea of leveling to like, influence how you feel about your job. But it's really hard not to when it affects how much access you get to people, how quickly people respond to your emails, how much they feel like they have to take seriously, like, the things you're suggesting. And like without it, it's like, "I swear, I'm not the intern. And even if I was, please respond."
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 7:41 Yeah.
Jen Dionisio 7:41 We even had this recently, you know, at my last job, I'm curious if other people are experiencing this that are listening. You know, we were asked in a reorg to not let anyone who was below manager level use the word "strategist" in their title, which was a little tough considering we were the content strategy team.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 8:02 Yeah.
Jen Dionisio 8:02 So everyone at every level had that title. And when we were kind of debating what we may retitle as, the directions people went in were really interesting. You know, I think a big concern was like, "Okay, I don't mind doing this internally, but like, what happens when I look for another job and nobody understands what I do? Or vice versa? Like, what if I have this role that's really clearly understood in my industry, but within this org, it's like, 'you write copy?'"
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 8:34 Right. Yeah. Well, we're not even gonna get into that today, but the confusion over like, what is strategy? What is a strategy title? Who should have those? I mean, like, we could have a whole other conversation about it. But instead, Jen, we should get into our listeners' dilemmas. Are you ready?
Jen Dionisio 8:50 Yeah, let's do it.
Jen Dionisio 8:56 Okay, our first question is from a person I'm going to call FS.
FS 9:03 I've been at my current job for about a year. They told me when they hired me that I was being rated at the high end of the level I was hired at. Cool I thought. (I also was getting a good bit more money from this so didn't even negotiate.) As I got started, I feel like my level was perhaps underestimated. I am advocating for a promotion in the next review cycle, but it makes me bummed that I feel like I am behind peers in terms of levels, and that this then puts me further away from a "senior" title in this org. But are these just comparison games that I need to stop thinking about? My pay and benefits meet the needs of my life right now. My work has been fairly satisfying. Why am I wasting time and energy on worrying about levels and titles and promotions and comparisons? Should I just learn to be content where I am?
How do you balance ambition with healthy contentment, and decide when drive is good or just trying to out-do others?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 9:53 Ooh, Jen, there's a lot to talk about here.
Jen Dionisio 9:56 Yeah, leveling, feeling underestimated, getting stuck in comparison, that sounds very familiar based on what we were just talking about. So Sara, that "FS" stands for "fairly satisfied." And if you were working with FS, where would you start?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 10:16 You know, I think where I would start is with the word that they used at the very end of their dilemma there: balance. Because they see all this tension in their letter, this tension between ambition and contentment, but maybe also tension between how FS feels about the situation, versus how they think they should feel about the situation.
Jen Dionisio 10:37 Yeah.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 10:38 So, FS, something I'm wondering here is what happens if we shift from a place of seeking balance between these two things and instead, look at how we might allow both things to simply be true at the same time, and to sort of like take them out of competition with one another. As in, you have a job that's pretty satisfying, that meets your financial needs, which yay, I think a lot of us don't celebrate this enough. It's a really wonderful thing to have a job like that, particularly in a world and in a moment where so many jobs are toxic and exploitative and where so many people aren't making enough to get by. And so what I take from your letter, FS, is that part of you is really grateful for those things. And I think that is a wonderful thing to acknowledge, a really healthy thing to acknowledge, particularly because it's so easy to get sucked into the trap of always wanting more, more, and more. And it's nice to know that at some level, what you have is enough. And so I really want you to take that in as being real and true.
But FS, you also feel under-leveled and underestimated. And I want you to really allow yourself to see that that is just as real and valid as the fact that you're doing okay. Because one of the things I do know is that when we cut off our feelings, like when we don't allow ourselves to feel hurt or disappointed or left out, when we tell ourselves that we "shouldn't feel that way," that really takes a toll over time. And so I think it's important to let yourself say, "I have a good job that meets my needs. And my current level feels inequitable." So once we can allow space for both things to be true, then what? Jen, I think we need to pull out our old friend BICEPS.
Jen Dionisio 12:21 We need a sound effect for that word, maybe like a "flex."
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 12:25 What does a flex sound like?
Jen Dionisio 12:27 As I just acted that out, I realized it makes no sound.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 12:34 Okay, so BICEPS is this great model for talking about your needs at work. It was developed by Paloma Medina. And we find it super useful, which is why we've already talked about it on this show a couple of times. But for a very quick refresh, BICEPS stands for "belonging," which is feeling like you're part of something, "improvement," which is about having a sense of progress or growth, "choice," which means having some autonomy, like having a sense of control, "equality," aka fairness, feeling like you're getting equitable treatment, and equitable access to information, "predictability," which is feeling like you know what's going to happen that things aren't changing overnight, and then "significance," which is about feeling like you're part of something important and that you are important.
And so when one or more of those needs aren't met, people tend to find work more difficult and more draining. And it doesn't mean it's the end of the world, like, we all go with some of those needs unmet some of the time. But chronically going without those needs met can really burn people out. And so FS, when you look at the BICEPS model, I'm curious what you notice, because I right away, notice that equality sounds like an issue for you. It doesn't feel fair to be leveled lower than your peers. But I also think there might be something going on with significance here. Because FS, I noticed you mentioned feeling underestimated. And when I hear that, it makes me wonder if there's some part of you that's maybe feeling like you're being seen as less important than your peers. And when we feel unimportant, that is not a good feeling.
So again, this is my interpretation of what your unmet needs might be, and I might not have it quite right, FS. I'm making some assumptions here. What I encourage you to do is really look at the BICEPS model yourself, we'll put it in the show notes, and think about what resonates with you. But I think that recognizing your unmet needs might be really helpful here, because it can help you get underneath the surface-level thing, which is just about titles and that might feel petty or shallow, and get you more into understanding, "Well, why exactly does this bother me so much? Like, what's actually going wrong here?" Because it is clear to me and your letter, FS, this does bother you and I just want to validate that it's okay. It's okay to want to be treated and paid fairly, and it's okay to want to feel like your contributions are seen and acknowledged.
Jen Dionisio 14:48 Yeah, I feel like it's so important to say that out loud over and over and over again. FS, your desires do not make you difficult or ungrateful. Sara, I don't know if you hear this too, but I think so often people feel like they owe their workplaces like gratitude for what they provide, even though like, you're the person providing the labor. You are just being compensated for the time and effort you're giving. And I also feel like, you know, I remember I felt this way, "Am I being superficial or materialistic if I let things like level and salary bother me?" And like when you have that doubt planted inside of you, it can really keep you stuck and not knowing how to move out of that. It seems like FS is really feeling that which, Sara, brings me to what is their ultimate question: should they keep caring about the promotion and the title and the level or stop trying for more and just be content with what they have?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 15:56 Yeah, I mean, to answer that, I want to go back to what I said at the beginning. Like, what if you didn't have to choose, FS? Just like both feelings are true and valid, like you're both grateful for all the things that are good about this job and do you feel under leveled and underestimated, what if you could give yourself permission to also do both things here? Meaning the permission to both like feel good about what you have today, to acknowledge it, to enjoy it, and permission to advocate for more for yourself? Because FS, in your letter, it sounds to me like you feel like you have to choose one or the other. And I want to challenge that because I actually think that they're two different things. One of them is about your internal situation, like what's your intrinsic motivation? What makes you feel energized? Your own sense of validation? Like, "How do I know whether I'm doing a good job?" That's your internal yardstick.
And it sounds like in those areas, you already are pretty content, you have a lot going for you. The job meets your financial needs. And it also meets a lot of your creative and intellectual needs. And so that means it serves the goals that are most meaningful to you personally. And that's great. But the lack of equity, the sense of being undervalued, those things are really about external approval and validation. And I want to be clear: it's not bad to care about those things. It is normal and healthy, to want to feel acknowledged and valued. Everybody deserves to feel acknowledged and valued. But what can sometimes happen is that we give all of our attention to those external factors. So we can become so focused on the external, that we pursue it even when it leads us to work lives that we actively hate. Like, I have seen this many times where people will wind up in jobs that look good on paper, but make them actively miserable.
And so we can become so focused on the external pieces that we stop knowing how to feel okay about ourselves and our work when we're not getting those external little quick hits of validation. And so, FS, this is why I want you to really look at what it would be like to embrace both: to acknowledge the contentment you feel in a lot of aspects of your work and to acknowledge you're grateful for the good salary, for the satisfying work, to acknowledge that you're getting a lot of the internal validation you need, and then to also acknowledge that you're not getting the external validation that you also want. You're not getting the rewards of a promotion. And you really want to be feeling like you're treated fairly. You do deserve that, you do deserve to feel seen for what you're putting in. And so once you do this, you can kind of move away from pitting the internal and the external against one another. And what that does is it opens up space for you to go after those external rewards, like the promotion, but without feeling quite so attached to it because your whole sense of self worth isn't tied up in it.
Because again, you already know that you're doing good work, and you're getting paid well, and everything's okay. And so you can go after the external promotion because that's fair and because you want to be seen for the work you're doing. But you don't need it to know that you're all right, and to be okay with yourself. And that means that if it doesn't happen, you haven't lost everything, because you still have all the things that you're grateful for. And those are worth a lot.
Jen Dionisio 19:14 I'm so glad you're saying that. Because now with the benefit of hindsight, I really wish I had heard this at the time that I was really struggling because I was doing such cool, interesting work. I was working with people who really believed in me and cared about me and I had fun with and are still friends of mine. But that bitterness about my level and my salary really kind of poisoned that time for me in a way that I wish I hadn't let it. You know, I still think it made sense to ask for a promotion and a raise and when that wasn't taken seriously to move on. But I really let that turn into an indictment of me and my skills and what people believed about me instead of it just being a circumstance that I could react to.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 20:08 Exactly. Right, when those things get conflated, it's like the lack of external reward and validation is telling me that actually I'm bad or like, I'm not doing enough, and I'm not good enough. That's the thing, FS, that I really want for you is to really be able to validate yourself and to know deep in your heart that the work you're doing is good and meaningful and it matters, and that you are getting enough out of it that you are okay financially, and that there's a level of safety there. It doesn't mean that you have to accept that as the be-all, end-all. As Jen said, I think it's absolutely fine and actually quite good to advocate for more, and if you don't get it to sometimes move on.
But I think getting really confident owning all of the things that are good about where you're at right now and naming those things, celebrating those things, that's going to make it easier for you to go out and advocate for what's fair, because you can do it from a place that's a little less personal. Because you're not looking for somebody to validate your personal worth, you are looking for them to acknowledge the contributions you're making in that org. And that doesn't necessarily feel so heavy or high stakes. And I think if you go in with it feeling a little less high stakes, you'll probably go in with a little bit more lightness and brightness, and maybe even a little bit more like convincing and compelling conversation. Because sometimes that's really hard to have when we're so focused on like, "What does it say about me if I don't get this?"
Jen Dionisio 21:34 Yeah, you mean you don't need to write a three page letter justifying why you deserve the things that you're asking for?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 21:40 I mean, you may need to write something down, you may need to document but I also think like a three-page justification letter usually doesn't justify much to anybody.
Jen Dionisio 21:49 Yeah, probably was a bit of overkill, but I really love this advice, Sara, that you're giving FS, and I think it's something that probably a lot of us could use a reminder of: be present to this like whole picture of our work lives and our careers and not just the pieces that really disappoint us, you know, because that's not the whole landscape. That is one part in a broader whole.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 22:14 So, FS, good luck to you. You're doing great. And you do deserve more.
Emily Duncan 22:21 Hey, everyone, it's Emily, the producer of PMLE. And I have a favor to ask you: if you're enjoying the show help us spread the word. We want to support as many people as possible through their weird work dilemmas, and the best way for us to convince the algorithms to promote the show is for you to rate and review us. Head to Apple podcasts and leave a comment and rate us five stars. No emoji reviews accepted. Thanks in advance.
Jen Dionisio 22:50 All right, Sara, are you ready for another dilemma?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 22:53 I sure am. Hit me.
Jen Dionisio 22:54 So this one is from another listener who is worried about their title and level but for some slightly different reasons. So I'm going to call them DM.
DM 23:05 I'm feeling really burnt out in my current role. My heart isn't in the company's mission, and there has been blatant disregard for the wellbeing of people who work here. (At an all-hands one time, executive leadership acknowledged the burnout by saying, "Thank you for your hard work during this exciting time!" That's it.). So, I'm starting to explore other opportunities, but I'm at a crossroads. I'm currently a people manager, and director would be my next level if I stay the course. I'm open to considering returning to an individual contributor role. But, there aren't a lot of roles open at what would be my equivalent level in the IC realm.
I've been considering "demoting" myself to a more junior title and level, because (1) that's where the job prospects are and (2) I think I might like the reduction in scope and responsibility as a way to help manage burnout right now... But I'm also worried that some short-term gains might create some issues later down the road...Will going into a more junior-level IC role hurt me long-term as far as career advancement and salary potential? Will this make it harder for me to go back to people management, if I decide to return to that path one day? Will this hurt my reputation as being a "senior" practitioner in my UX and content?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 24:13 Jen, am I the only one who heard "exciting time" in air quotes?
Jen Dionisio 24:15 Oh, my God, that sentence is just ringing in my head. I can picture that meeting so vividly. But I'm really actually glad that we're talking about this particular dilemma today because I've had a similar conversation with a number of my clients. And it's been really interesting to see this really wide spectrum of perspectives on whether this is a good, bad, or neutral idea. I've heard on like one end, a lot of hurt and anger that when you feel kind of forced into this choice because this industry is broken, and "I am not going to be able to ever kind of move up this ladder any further, I'm being blocked." But then there's this other perspective I hear that is a little more excited about this prospect. People who are kind of like, "Hey, this is a new season of my life, and I want to conserve as much energy as possible for non-work things." And it's tricky to kind of figure out where you fall in that line. So, Sara, if you haven't guessed, "DM" is standing for "demoting myself." And let me ask you an easy question: should DM demote themselves?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 25:40 Mmm, that's a great question. And of course, we will not be able to answer that directly.
Jen Dionisio 25:46 Nope.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 25:46 But what I actually want to start with is DM's last question: "Will this hurt my reputation as a senior practitioner?" And the reason I want to start there is because hearing that as the very last thing you wrote, DM, it makes me wonder if this is a fear that's really driving a lot of your angst here, like if this is really the ultimate fear. And I can't know that for sure from your letter. But I do want to encourage you to think about that. If you're being really honest with yourself, how much of your fear of going for a less senior job is related to what other people might think of you or about you? If that's a pretty heavy concern, then DM, I might spend some time with that fear first. Because if that fear is really big, you can wind up kind of like handing the wheel over to that fear.
And I'm not sure you want the fear of your reputation to be the one who calls the shots here because, like we talked about with FS, it's not that external rewards or external perception don't matter. Other people's opinions of us, they do impact the opportunities we have available to us. And it's okay to wonder what people will think. I think it's normal to wonder what people will think. But that voice can just get really, really loud. And when it gets really loud, it can overshadow something that I believe is much more important, which is what we think about ourselves.
Jen Dionisio 27:00 Yes.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 27:00 Right? Like same thing we talked about with FS, like whether we're happy and whether we enjoy our work, and whether we feel like it suits our lives, and whether we're living in a way that's sustainable, whether we have space to heal and to find joy. And so kind of continuing with that metaphor about driving, DM, I might suggest you ask yourself, which part of you do you want to take the wheel right now? Is that the part of you that's afraid of being perceived as a failure, or somebody who's past their prime, or whatever it is that you're afraid of, whatever that nasty, cruel voice in your head happens to say to you, is that the part you want at the wheel? Or would you rather have the part of you that's thinking about your well-being, that's thinking about healing taking over the car?
And I don't know for sure how you'd answer that, DM, but I'm going to guess that there's a good chance it's the latter, or you probably wouldn't have even been considering this path or writing us a letter. And that doesn't mean you need to kick the part of you that's worried about perception out of the car entirely. It might just mean you need to demote them, like they need to go to the back seat. You can say to them, "You know, I understand that you're afraid of how this might impact my reputation. You get to pipe up and tell me you're afraid, but you can't drive."
Jen Dionisio 28:11 It's so helpful to know that that is actually like a choice you are empowered to make because when I was really badly burned out a few years back, I definitely did not put my more compassionate parts in that front seat. And after time, it actually kind of felt like my nastier parts just like kind of shoved the compassionate ones out the door and backed over and up against them again and again.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 28:38 Wow, vivid.
Jen Dionisio 28:39 Yeah, but it truly exacerbated what was already a really hard and difficult experience for me. Like, that hardness was not what I needed to hear at that moment.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 28:51 Oh, Jen, I am so sorry that you went through that. But I also know it's really common because one of the things burnout does to us is it really gives free rein to those most nasty voices. It's like it's really hard to see positive situations or to kind of like look at things through new lenses. And we tend to look at stuff through these really kind of cruel and self defeating lenses, like "nothing will ever change" or "everything is broken."
Jen Dionisio 29:20 “It's all me.”
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 29:22 Right. And from that lens, it's just so easy to see ourselves as failures, to believe that if we make any other choice than the one we're making right now, everything's gonna fall apart. It can really lead us to like clinging to stuff that's not working, because we have this idea in our head that we cannot do anything different. So when you're struggling, and it sounds like DM has been struggling for a while, it can be really hard to tune into those other voices. So that's why, DM, I really want to encourage you to slow down and try to do that here. What happens when the part of you who knows that you're in an unsustainable place right now takes the wheel? Like, where does that person drive? What does that person know?
Jen Dionisio 30:07 Yeah, I think we're so quick to forget that there are other types of wisdom that we already possess if we just kind of create the conditions where we can hear it.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 30:18 Right. And it's hard. It's hard when you're feeling stressed and burnt. But you can still tap into those voices, it just often takes a really intentional slowing down that we often convince ourselves we cannot possibly do.
Jen Dionisio 30:31 Nope, nope. So Sara, let's say that DM does realize that it is okay to slow down and spend some time with this question of who's at the wheel. Let's say that that more compassionate voice tells them that it actually is time to step a few rungs down on the ladder. How might DM come to terms with what that could or could not mean long term?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 30:59 Yeah. So I might call what DM is considering a recovery job, meaning a job that's less of a stretch, less stress, a job where they can heal from burnout. And what I hear in DM's letter is that they're worried that the short term gains of being able to heal in a less stressful role might lead them to not being considered leadership material in the long run. Now, I don't know if you're right or wrong about that, like I don't have a crystal ball. I don't know what everybody's thinking. I think it's a risk that's worth considering. But I think there's another risk that's worth looking at at the same time that's oftentimes left under the rug. And that's this: what's the cost of staying where you are right now?
And I really want you to think about that and name that because you've said that you're burning out. And that makes me wonder if the price tag on waiting for the exact right opportunity, the one that's like at your level and feels like it will be a healthy environment for you to heal in, if that's just too high. And that's going to depend on like how much it's hurting you to continue doing what you're doing, which is a question only you can answer. So DM, I really want to encourage you to spend some time with that. Can your well-being afford to wait? And while I know you're afraid that taking a lower level job might hurt your long term career prospects, I'd also encourage you to consider how might descending into a really deep bout of burnout affect those same long term prospects?
Jen Dionisio 32:24 Yeah.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 32:25 Because yeah, I've seen people hang on and hang on, only to make themselves so sick and depleted, I mean, literally, physically ill, that they needed to take a year off work or sometimes more to feel like they've recovered. And to be honest, that can be an even harder thing to bounce back from professionally than moving into a role that maybe feels a little bit lower level than where you've been. I say that because I think so often, we think that we are enduring short-term pain for long-term reward. But enduring the pain actually has a long-term cost for us, too. Sometimes it really is the best thing we can do for ourselves in both the short and the long-term to just get out. It just doesn't always feel that way.
Jen Dionisio 33:07 Yeah. And especially, you know, if you have the concern that DM shared, which is "What if going for this lower title really hurts me and is held against me later on?" You know, Sara, what have you seen out in the world when people have made this choice?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 33:22 So like I said, you know, I don't have a crystal ball. I don't know what every single person's opinion might be. But I have seen some anecdotal things. And one of them is that I think there's a growing acceptance, and maybe not just acceptance, but actually like support for, moving between management and IC and back again. Because, DM, you are not the only person who's had this itch. And I've worked with a lot of clients who've wanted to do this. And for a lot of people, it's because they want to stay connected to the craft. Sometimes, you know, when they're going to talk to a hiring manager in the future, that hiring manager is actually really glad that they have recent IC experience, because it means that they're much closer to the work itself. And they're not so divorced from what the craft looks like, in this particular moment. Their skills aren't dated, and that can actually really be an asset in some roles, too.
Jen Dionisio 34:07 Yeah, I mean, I've actually done that transition more than once. I think management can take a real toll on people, especially when you're responsible for a group of people's emotional health and your own and sometimes moving back into that IC role lets you recharge so that you can be a good manager again.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 34:27 Well, and not only that, you know, the other thing I have been hearing a lot about is sort of the rise of the player-coach role, which I have mixed feelings about. But the idea of a player-coach role is that you are a manager so you're a people leader, usually often with like a smaller team, but you're also still doing hands-on work. So like if you were a designer, for example, maybe you would manage a couple of people while also being the like hands-on designer for one particular product area. And like I said, mixed feelings because I've also seen those roles be burnout central because you end up doing two jobs. But at their best, those roles are where people thrive who still want to be connected to the craft. They don't want to let that go entirely, but they also enjoy managing people.
Now, I don't know if that's a path for you, DM, and I can't promise that no one will take you out of the running for a management role, because you went back to IC for a while. But I can tell you that some of those old rigid rules about like, "you have to pick a path and then stay on it," those are loosening. And based on the conversations that I've been having with my clients and the paths I've seen them successfully take, they have moved from IC to manager then back to IC then back into management. And it can look a lot of different ways.
The other thing that I've seen that might be helpful for you to think about here, DM, is people who've applied for a senior IC role, even though they felt like they were a little overqualified, and then when the organization was actually going through making an offer, they would level them. And they would get brought in at a higher level, like maybe as a staff level or a principal level. And this is obviously not a guarantee, there are plenty of places out there that are happy to under-level people to save money, but I have definitely seen it happen. And so what if some of those roles that are maybe feeling a little bit junior to you are actually more flexible than you think, where you might actually be able to get like a lead or a staff title?
Jen Dionisio 36:19 Yeah, you know, my last company was actually exactly like this, like when we were hiring for roles, we would typically post the senior level role, which was, you know, in our world an A3. But we would get such a wide range of people applying for roles that it was understood by, you know, our talent acquisition people that on those initial calls, they would start getting a sense of what that person's true leveling might be. And that would be based on experience and also like salary requests, like if you want to be a senior, but the pay you're asking for is way out of band, if you're great, and we want to work with you, we would likely still hire you and just kind of raise that title. I also think something that we saw a lot was it was really hard for people to judge how they applied to the roles that we would have, because a senior designer can mean so many different things depending on what organization you're in. Titles are so different across the industry, it's so hard to really pinpoint who the right person is for a role until you actually started talking to them about their work experience.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 37:32 Yeah. Which I think what really leads me to the last bit of advice I have for DM, which is, you know, you don't have to take a role just because you apply for it. Some of this is about feeling things out. And I know it's a lot of work to apply. I know that being on the job market can feel like jumping through a ton of ridiculous hoops. And that's all real. But I just want to remind you, DM, that you are allowed to apply to a role that maybe feels a little bit under-level for you, and see what happens, to go on some interviews and find out for yourself like how does it feel to imagine actually taking on a role like this? When I talk about the work that I'd be doing if I stepped back? What do I like about it? What feels deflating or disappointing and what feels exciting? What feels like relief? Ultimately, what feels right to you?
And at the same time, I would also encourage you to really think about how much time you have in this role that you're in now. How much is it harming you? And what's it costing you to stay? Because it sounds like no matter what you know, you need to go. And what you find out in that can help you decide you know, how picky versus how open you are in the kinds of roles you're looking at right now. Because you know, even if you take a lower level role, and it does impact you in the long-term, remember that soda staying in a place that's burning you out and leaving you feeling deflated. So, DM, whatever you choose, I really hope you choose it for you. Not anyone else.
Jen Dionisio 38:58 Take care of yourself, DM. And I'm really glad that you brought this question to us. Because I really think it is so important for us to remember that there is a difference between our internal wants and desires, and also our big fears of what we think the world outside of our brains thinks about us. And when we don't have the ability to distinguish between the two, we can make some really bad choices that are based simply on how we imagine we might be perceived. And the truth is, we don't even know that that is actually what the perception will be
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 39:40 Right. And again, that's when fear takes the wheel right? And I think it is completely reasonable to have those fears and to think about other people's perceptions of you. But who gets to drive the car? And I think that this is one of those situations where it's very easy to let your fear of your reputation or others perception In this drive, and I think there are very few circumstances where that's actually the most intentional or long range choice for us.
Jen Dionisio 40:07 Yeah, agreed.
Jen Dionisio 40:17 And that's it for this week's episode. Per My Last Email is a production of Active Voice. Check us out at https://www.activevoicehq.com/ and get all the past episodes show notes and full transcripts for the podcast at https://pmleshow.com/. This episode was produced by Emily Duncan. Our theme music is "(I'm A) Modern Woman" by Maria T. Buy her album at https://thisismariat.bandcamp.com/. Big thanks to Fairly Satisfied and Demoting Myself for submitting their stories to today's show. Thank you all for listening. If you've got a work dilemma eating away at you, we want to hear it. Head to https://pmleshow.com/ and submit your story. See you next time.