You’ve tried gentle nudges. You’ve tried slaps on the wrist. Now what?
Today’s letter writers are working to make change in their organizations…but they’re running into all kinds of roadblocks. One wants their discipline to get more respect, but feels ignored and outnumbered. The other is pushing their company to hire more inclusively than “people we already know”—and hitting a brick wall. They’re both frustrated and exhausted. Listen in as Sara and Jen help them decide how to move forward—without burning out or burning bridges.
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Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:00 I think the truth is, if you don't have the top-down power, you don't have the ear of an executive who is like fighting for you. If you don't have that top-down power, relationships are truly where you have to start. Relationships are where you can get anywhere.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:33 Hey, Jen, we're back.
Jen Dionisio 0:36 It felt like it's been so long.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:38 Wintertime, man, wintertime. Sometimes the days really do stretch, but it's been what a month since we've recorded?
Jen Dionisio 0:45 I think that's it. Maybe even a little bit less.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:48 Let's see if we still remember how to do this.
Jen Dionisio 0:51 Yeah, well, we nailed the intro at least.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:55 It's always the hardest part. Hey, everybody, welcome to Per My Last Email, the show about what to do when work gets weird. I'm Sara Wachter-Boettcher.
Jen Dionisio 1:03 And I'm Jen Dionisio. Sara, what kind of weird are we kicking off with for the new season?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 1:09 Okay, so for today's episode, we have some letters from people who are trying to create culture change in their organizations. And yeah, it's not working quite like they'd hoped.
Jen Dionisio 1:23 You know, I feel like so often in culture change, it seems like these should be no-brainer activities that everyone gets behind. And yet, it is really hard to make a big or a small organization act differently than it's used to doing.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 1:41 Change is really hard. And I think, as you're gonna see in our letters today, even when it's about stuff that seems like most people would agree, it's still so hard. So are you ready to get into it?
Jen Dionisio 1:53 I am.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 1:59 Okay, so this first one is from a content designer who's working in financial services.
PB 2:04 I work at a large corporation in UX as a senior content designer and leader. The content designers in our org have a really hard time pushing back on product partners who want to add content to our digital experiences that goes against our guidelines and/or basic UX writing best practices. Unless we have something clearly documented as a "no-no" in our guidelines, they will push and push to make a change that we believe is wrong until they get their way because ultimately, they are the "owners" of these experiences. We get little help from senior UX leadership because (surprise, surprise) they all have design backgrounds, not content backgrounds. (All content designers report up to UX managers, no centralized content org.)
It's really demoralizing and demotivating to our content design community to be overruled like that. Do you have any tips or tricks for how we can make a culture change around this? I keep thinking about escalation procedures ... but escalate to whom, since nobody in leadership has a content background? Another idea I'm mulling over is a decision log to track when an experience is pushed out with content that went against our recommendations. Any thoughts on those or other ideas? How do we push back on or at least track bad content decisions made by non-content people?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 3:18 Okay, so Jen, I'm gonna call this person PB for "pushing back." And, you know, I know they're talking about content design here. But like, I do want to note this is not exclusive to content design. I know designers who are really struggling when engineering takes over. I know researchers who feel like literally everybody ignores them. I think that content folks oftentimes have this problem maybe more acutely. But I do think that this actually has implications way beyond the specifics of content. So anybody who's having a challenge feeling like your expertise is being listened to, this one is for you. So that said, how can PB and their team speak up for their expertise or maybe try something new here? What should they do?
Jen Dionisio 4:06 Yeah, you know, I do have to say, the thing I am happy to hear is that they know that they have expertise to share, and that they are valuable contributors to their products and this work. And having that knowledge, I think, can really help when you're worried about kind of speaking up and advocating for yourself. What's unfortunate is I think, to your point about this being an experience that lots of different disciplines have, so often we hear from people who are just really wishing that product folks would ask them or be proactive in trying to figure out how to better incorporate researchers and designers and content folks into strategic decision-making and the tactical work which I think is much more easy to get recognition in. So I do really feel for you, PB. I know that this can be frustrating, and you're definitely not alone.
But I think the challenge is, you know, for you, and for anyone else trying to change work culture, it can often feel like you really only have two very opposite and extreme choices. The first is to like, throw your hands up in the air and give up. Or the other option is to burn yourself out trying to prove yourself and your ideas and your work over and over and over again. And yeah, like, those are choices, but they are definitely not the only ones. And they're definitely not two I would recommend. Would you, Sara?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 5:36 No, I would not.
Jen Dionisio 5:37 Yeah. So where I might start is, before you have to have some scary discussions outside of your immediate team, how aligned is the content group within themselves? Have you all sat down together and discussed what are the behaviors that you see today that you want to stop? And you know, what's the reason that those are creating challenges both for you all and for the impact of the team overall? One piece of good news that I read is that the product team will follow guidelines that are clearly documented as no no's. And so there does seem to perhaps be some understanding that you are contributing rules that need to be followed, even if it feels like there are new choices and decisions coming up all the time that you are getting vetoed in.
So when you think about what in your mind would be helpful to add into that list of no no's into that document, what are some of those behaviors? What are some of those activities? What is the reason that they are causing challenges for your teams, and being able to explain the why behind that I think could help your product team understand why it's not just you complaining about something or being frustrated, and there's an actual real reason behind why you want things to change.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 7:00 You know, as I really listened to some of what PB said here, "no no's" really stuck out to me. And then so did what they said about bad content decisions. I'm kind of wondering if actually, maybe one of the challenges is the way that PB is framing content work, or the content team as a whole is framing content work, as like rules you have to follow or your hand gets slapped. And wondering if that might be even contributing to the perception of them as complainers or that they're like policing the content, as opposed to, I don't know, like more members of the team, partners in the process.
Jen Dionisio 7:34 Yeah.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 7:34 There's something going on there that I feel like is worth digging into, PB.
Jen Dionisio 7:37 I think you're right. And I think that's why it's like, "Okay, so we have these behaviors that aren't really working. This group collectively needs to solve these." And I think, knowing what they are, can help you to have a united front in really kind of bringing those to the fore, so that everybody can solve them together. And I think it's also really valuable to talk about the behaviors that are working well. What are the things that should continue? Like, how is it that your product partners are sometimes making sure that you are included, so that it's not all just, "Here's all the things that you're all doing wrong and thwarting us," and that there is that understanding of like, "We're all constantly trying to work together more effectively. Here's what needs to happen next."
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 8:25 Yeah.
Jen Dionisio 8:25 "Here's what's getting in the way of that."
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 8:27 Yeah, I feel like it would be really useful to think about, like, where are the bright spots, because it can be unpleasant to be on the receiving end of "Here's all the stuff you're not doing. And here's all the ways that this is not working." And then not saying that that's wrong. Like, those things might not be true. But sometimes you can get a lot more openness to change if you can go in with something that's more like, "Here are some bright spots where things are working really well. How can we grow these? How can we make more of our work like this?"
Jen Dionisio 8:57 And I think, too, that idea of like, what are the bright spots that you could imagine in the future, like things that it's not that anyone's doing wrong, but are like new opportunities to try? I bet within your team, you have a lot of great ideas for things that you could add into your practices that would make this work be more effective. And I imagine the team would be open to hearing it, or at least, it might be really good intelligence for you and the other content designers to share some of those ideas to actually know what that reaction is going to be.
So my thought is that within your content design group, having a shared point of view, having that sort of shared understanding about what you need, what's going well, what's not going well, what you'd like to change, can help you really be a united front, you know, when you're advocating for your recommendations, when you're making decisions about what to fight and what not to fight, and when you're all kind of having each other's backs by having a shared message that shows that it's not just one person's opinion and that it is your collective expertise coming to the group.
But I also really think that's something I'd love to know is how much PB and their fellow content designers really understand what their product partners are experiencing, even though you might be really annoyed and frustrated with them right now, because ultimately, any successful relationship or partnership needs both sides to be active in participating. And Sara, I love the 3P framework that you've taught in a lot of our workshops about helping people find those connections to partners that can be challenging. Can you walk us through that a little bit?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 9:11 Yeah. So it comes out of this belief that I have, which is that the number one way to get people to see things from your point of view is to honestly try to see things from theirs. And I know that that's not always what people want to hear, particularly when they're already frustrated, and they already feel like they've tried a whole bunch of things to get change to happen, and they don't feel listened to, and they're maybe kind of feeling defensive or combative. And that's some of the vibes I'm getting from PB's letter that they're, like, out there already upset and feeling like angry about it.
But PB, I hope that you can pause for a second and tune into this one because I think the truth is, if you don't have the top-down power, which you don't in this scenario, you don't have content leadership who has a seat at whatever leadership table there might be. You don't have the ear of an executive who is like fighting for you. If you don't have that top-down power, relationships are truly where you have to start. Relationships are where you can get anywhere.
Jen Dionisio 11:48 I want to put that on a bumper sticker. It really is true. And it's the road that we could have if we're not the one that's like making all the decisions.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 11:56 Yeah. And what I hear is that they've made things like content guidelines, right? They've documented stuff. But those are like the content team's content guidelines, and there isn't necessarily this like enforced requirement that they be followed by other people. And so in that kind of scenario, you're really trying to get people to come along with you, and that is not going to work if you're approaching it like a fight. And I know how easy it is to get into that fight mindset when you're feeling undervalued, thwarted, unlistened to. Okay, so the 3P's, they stand for perspective, pain points, and priorities. So perspective means really just understanding what things look like in their world and like what other people's day-to-day experience is like. So what is a day like for your design partners or your product partners? What are the pressures that they're under? What are the different stresses that they're experiencing?
And that actually brings us to pain points, which is really about the challenges they're facing. Like, what's hard about their job? What keeps them up at night? Where do they feel stuck? Where are they being tasked with like impossible goals? And then priorities: priorities is about how they define success and what matters to them. How are they being asked to show impact in their org? What goals are most important for them to hit this year? What are the things that they're going to get measured on or asked about later? And the thing is, this is all just about remembering that whether it's your UX partners, or your product partners, they're just people. And you know, they actually probably have more in common with you than you might think, or that might be easy to remember when you're feeling upset. They have toxic bosses and unrealistic deadlines and burnout and any number of things. And they also probably actually want to do good work.
Jen Dionisio 13:58 That's such a good point. I think so often, when we start feeling like the us versus them in our teams, you know, we forget that like a lot of us are getting all of the same shit coming down from above and just having to navigate it separately and differently instead of making each other's lives easier.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 14:18 Yeah. And I'm not trying to take them off the hook or say that they're behaving well. I mean, it sounds like they're doing some stuff that doesn't feel fair. But I would say that if we can assume that most people are trying to do good work or are trying to do their best in imperfect circumstances, then we can also start seeing that like their definition of good work or the lens that they're bringing to it is just different than yours. And I think that might create a little bit of space to start to just, again, rehumanize them and really see them as people.
And look, I know it can be hard to see them that way when you're feeling frustrated, PB. But I do encourage you to think about, what would it look like to get curious about them? To get really curious about what it's like in their world. Because otherwise, it is so easy to start seeing them as the enemy. And honestly, when I read PB's letter, I'm a little concerned that that's already happening here. Because I hear this desire for a senior UX leader who you could like escalate things to. And that to me feels a little like looking for a referee who will take your side, or like somebody who will go to battle for you.
And so PB, I just want to encourage you to reframe what you actually want and need from your leaders. I think that when you're looking for your leaders to kind of like battle for you, pick a side, adjudicate these squabbles, it really does contribute to an us versus them dynamic. And from that place, it's also easy to see every decision that's different than what you think should happen as a personal slight, that every time somebody tries to insert content that isn't the way that you would want to do it, to start seeing that as them belittling your profession, or disrespecting you. And it's very personal-feeling. But I often think, like, it's not actually personal. They usually have some kind of agenda. There's something important to them. And figuring out what that is can be really helpful.
And you know, I just think when we get trapped in these combative cycles, I just don't think it gets us anywhere that we want to be. I also think it's not the way to your senior leaders' hearts. You know, if you think about their job as being to like, ask them to go to bat for you with your product partners, that might actually make them more defensive and ready to kind of retrench to their comfort zone because they don't necessarily want to be in that role. And if their comfort zone is design and not content, that's going to be where they're going to go. So PB, I would really encourage you to think about how you might build relationships with those senior leaders, too, the senior leaders in UX who could be support people for you and allies for you.
But you want them to see you as more than that content person who's always upset. I think you want them to see you as someone who can bring a fresh perspective and bring insight. And I don't think that's going to happen if the way that you are looking to them is like a source for escalation.
Jen Dionisio 17:15 Yeah, it's so true. And, like thinking back to some of my experiences, you know, I would have people on my team kind of come to me wanting me to be that referee in certain situations, you know, and so often it was like, "Well, have you talked with the group about this first?” Because me coming in as an outsider and telling everybody what to do is actually...maybe people will feel obligated to do it. But it's not going to make a better relationship between these two groups. And it's also not going to set you up for success when you try to navigate challenges in the future if an outside person always needs to come in and make the changes.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 17:54 Yeah. It's not leading to people getting on board because they can see it's the right thing to do. It's like them getting on board because they're afraid of getting in trouble. I mean, at times, that's fine. But I think the kind of cultural change that PB's really looking for is deeper than that. Now all of that said, I will admit PB, if your product partners or your UX leaders don't respond to your efforts at connection, it can feel a bit one-sided. And my goal here is not to tell you to like continually go get curious and be open to them and then that continue to be just something you do and that they never do. That is not actually where I'm headed. The idea is that when you get really curious about them, and you actually are open to their perspective, you create space. You create space for them to get more curious about you.
That's the hope. The hope is that this helps you build something that feels more mutual, and where you're in more of a conversation about what each of you is trying to accomplish, where you have the same goals and where your goals might differ a little bit or your understanding might differ a little bit, and then like work it out together. But that mutuality, I will say it's not in your control. The other party has to choose to show up to that relationship and to make it mutual. But what is in your control is how you show up. And it is in your control to choose to start that process of connection and to start seeing what emerges.
And I think that as much as that's a risk in the sense that like you don't know what you're gonna get back, it is the most likely path to them actually engaging in what you're trying to get them to hear. Because it sounds like right now, they're really not hearing you. And that's really painful.
Jen Dionisio 18:34 Yeah. And I can see where this urge to start tracking the impact of all of these content decisions and having this sort of like, "Here's where a bad decision was made," can be really tempting. And in some cases, I think, you know, PB might be onto something. Like, having real data as to what's working and what's not working in your product is something everyone on the team should care about, you know? Especially if you're approaching this as it's not meant to be punitive. Right? That it's, "We are evaluating ourselves and our work to make sure we're being as efficient and effective as possible."
You know, but going back to Sara, what you said, and those 3P's, in an ideal world, there's an opportunity to bring this full team together to ask how do we solve these challenges? And yeah, you may not make traction, or, you know, the traction that you make could get you partway towards this ideal way of working that you've imagined, but not quite enough to make you feel 100% amazing about the content that's being shipped out. And that might be where there is an opportunity for you and the other content designers to continue talking amongst yourselves about what you need to do to make this work feel good enough for you. You know, and I think that starts with asking yourselves, like, what is in your control? And what are those fights that are worth fighting? And what would make you feel successful when you're kind of getting your work out there, even if it's not perfect content 100% of the time.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 21:17 Yeah, Jen. I am so glad you mentioned shipping imperfect content, because I've seen this so often with content people, and I think it happens in other fields as well. But what happens is people get really obsessed with the idea that their responsibility is to make an entire corporation's content perfect. And if they can't do that, it's like a personal reflection on them. And that really does lead to these cycles of like over-personalizing the situation, taking on way too much, fighting and fighting and fighting and honestly making enemies because you're so laser focused on "the content has to be perfect." And then guess what? It burns you out. Like, that is exhausting. That's not a sustainable way to work.
And I get it, like I am, in my heart, in my soul, still a content person. I hate seeing stuff go out the door that isn't that good. But PB, you work at a financial services institution. And so I'm going to guess it's a relatively large company. And I'm gonna guess that there's a lot of content. And I'm gonna guess that if your team isn't huge and doesn't have leadership representation, that means you probably have relatively few people doing this work compared to how much content there is. And in an environment like that, I think it's really healthy to recognize that not everything can be yours. Not everything can be a problem that you are going to personally take on. And also when some of that content goes out, that's like, yeah, it wasn't great. Yeah, it wasn't ideal.
That's not on you. Because when you try to take on everything as your problem, you end up becoming a martyr. And when you're a martyr, you end up basically sacrificing all of yourself to this organization and its lack of resourcing and its lack of investment. And I will say that is just too heavy. And that is not yours. So I would really suggest PB that you get some distance from all the little arguments over style, and no no's, as you say, and ask yourself, like, "What are my real priorities here? What are our priorities as a content team when we look at, you know, the top three or four places where we would like to see an improvement in the experience that's content-based, the top two or three places where we could see like, meaningful shifts?"
I think that what that might do is help you get away from the kind of like petty and irritating content fights, and move toward just a few things that are about building a better user experience, and maybe also having significant business impact. And that might mean letting go of some of your best practices. Like when you get caught up on, I don't know, things like are the headlines sentence casing or title casing? You know, like all of these kinds of smaller things. And I'm not saying they don't matter. Everything matters. But it's really about saying, what is the impact we're trying to have? And how do we organize ourselves around just a few things that we can help get people to see differently, versus fighting over copy edits? Because I think when you're fighting over copy edits, it's exhausting. It's unlikely to change people's minds, but it also keeps you really small, like it keeps you kind of in the weeds. And so it keeps content’s position to something that's in the weeds, as opposed to something that is strategic and essential.
Jen Dionisio 24:39 Oh, yes, that is so true. And I think it also kind of speaks to that idea of like progress over perfection because if you can take those two or three themes and really like make significant progress on resolving them over say the next six months to a year, that is laying a foundation for like continued collaboration and bettering of your product over time, and it's just a much more sustainable way to build out how your team works together and what your standards are. And it doesn't rely on going back to those initial extremes that I mentioned, where you're either like giving up or burning out.
And in the meantime, you know, something I would really encourage you to do, even though you're feeling frustrated PB, is how can you find some meaning in the work you're doing right now? How can you find something outside of some of those bad content decisions that is work that has gone live that you're really actually proud of? And how do you make those wins louder within your organization so that people want to hear from you more, they want to hear more of your expertise?
If you and your fellow content designers are feeling really annoyed and frustrated right now, how can you support and celebrate each other as you also maybe have some of these wins come through, or ship work that really did follow the recommendations that you provided? In the short term that may not be the actual culture change that you're hoping for. But I think it can also give you and your team a lot more hope and a little more swagger as you're trying to enmesh yourself more with your product partners and leadership so that all of you are reaching your goals together.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 24:40 Yeah, Jen, I'm so glad you mentioned really tapping into some more of that kind of like positive energy and purpose and things that feel good. Because not only is that going to help you in your day to day, PB–like, I think finding that is going to be good for you and make you feel a little bit better— I actually think that's the kind of energy people are more likely to connect with. You know, people don't really connect with somebody who is slapping them on the wrist and telling them that they're doing bad things. But if you can show them some of the work that you're doing that you're excited about, that you're feeling really good about, that's more likely to tap into something generative in them. And I think that's gonna really help you out.
Jen Dionisio 27:10 Good luck, PB. Work on those 3 Ps. And we'd love to hear if it helps you make any progress. We're rooting for you.
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Jen Dionisio 28:27 So Sara, do you have another question for me?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 28:30 Oh, I do. This comes from a listener who asked to be called Ben, and they work in civic tech in San Francisco.
Ben 28:38 I work at a civic tech organization. Our values are all about making the world better and championing people's lived experiences. But I've noticed a pattern of problematic hiring practices. Like a lot of workplaces in our industry, our full team is predominantly composed of white people of similar, often elite, educational backgrounds. A lot of people have worked together before at different organizations. The organization likes to "hire who they know."
I noticed this even more keenly when I was asked to be involved in technical interviews at my company. The candidates we were sent didn't always have the technical experience we required, but they seemed to be from the same social or professional circle as some of our leadership team. I brought this up in debrief sessions in the most professional way I could. Questions like "where do we post our job opportunities, and can that be transparent among staff?" and "Here are inclusive job boards for this area of work; can we post our opportunities there?" and "Can we consider anti-bias training for interviews and reviewing resumes?"
My manager, a white woman, was a bit defensive when we talked through these points later in a 1:1, by naming all of the reasons we "couldn't do all that" this time around and things are such a rush at work and they really care about all this, but, but, but. Then, today, I found out my new manager is actually a friend of my previous manager and another woman at the company. The lip service is a bit maddening. We care about diversity, sure, but we also are looking for a very specific type of person, apparently, who is just like us, who some of us happen to actually know already outside of work.
This affects so much of work, like my trust in how this organization really lives up to its values, how it affects the climate of inclusion for all of our team and not just our white teammates, and how it affects the actual work we do. The thing that most frustrates me is that there are genuine, achievable ways you can create inclusive hiring and build more inclusive teams that are more representative of the global majority. Even starting with the little steps, like where you advertise roles, and how you provide information about them and support people through the hiring process, and even when you consider a search to be "failed" if it doesn't meet your inclusion standards.
Am I too much of an idealist to expect this from the place I work? How can I not get so frustrated that I decide to quit instead of continuing to push toward greater equity in a way that doesn't just see me punished for being difficult or unsafe or paternalistically gaslit, when there is no guarantee that they will ever change?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 31:20 So Jen, is Ben too much of an idealist?
Jen Dionisio 31:22 No. A big, fat, emphatic no. What Ben described should just be table stakes in the hiring processes at any organization in the year 2024. And, you know, I know that that's not the case. And it's not the case far beyond when it should have been. But I know that feeling that disconnect of where things should be ideally and where they are can be even more distressing when you work for a mission-driven organization and see kind of the hypocrisy of them failing that mission. Sara, when I worked in nonprofits, I saw this all the time. And I imagine Ben built a career in civic tech because it felt like it was aligned to their values. And these feelings that Ben's sharing are really reflecting a big sense of those values being violated for them.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 32:20 Yeah, you know, Jen, when I read this letter, I started thinking about moral injury. Have we talked about that on the show yet?
Jen Dionisio 32:27 We have, because I think it's coming up for a lot of people in our community. And I'd love to hear your take on it in this situation.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 32:35 Yeah, I mean, great. We'll talk about it again. Okay. So moral injury is like the psychic harm that is caused when you feel required to act in a way that violates your sense of right or wrong. And a lot of the early research on it came from people who are working with Vietnam veterans. But it's not limited to people who've been in those kinds of extreme scenarios. Like just like anybody can end up with PTSD who has been through trauma, anyone can experience moral injury. So I think a useful example that's pretty relevant for folks is to think about healthcare workers during the peak of the pandemic, when a lot of hospitals were overcapacity. It was awful. And doctors and nurses were getting stuck in triage mode, where they had to do things like ration care. Not everybody who needed a ventilator could get a ventilator, because they didn't have enough. And they couldn't spend enough time with patients.
And all of that is so hard on people who have really built a life and a career out of the idea of like, at its best, right, in healthcare if like helping people. And so that is an example of moral injury, because even though they were doing the best that they could, the conditions they were in were forcing them to violate the values that they hold, or their sort of sense of morality. And so that means that they were feeling that psychic pain of not living up to their own moral code. And there's a cost to that, like that hurts you overtime. And so in Ben's situation, it's not that extreme. But that doesn't mean that moral injury isn't happening. I think, in fact, I read a really great article from actually Harvard Business Review, maybe last year or so, that was from researchers who study moral injury. I'll make sure we link it in the show notes. And they talk about how common those experiences are at work.
And the way that they describe moral injury, I think is really useful. They talk about it as a trauma response, so kind of like PTSD, except they say that PTSD is associated with a threat to our mortality and damages our sense of safety, but moral injury wounds our morality. And so it damages our sense of trust. And I think that that is what we're seeing with Ben saying, you know, like, "My sense of trust in this organization is gone," and that has long term consequences. And so to Ben, I think it's really important that you take this seriously because I think that when we put up with this kind of moral injury over and over and over again, there's a cost to it. Like that causes us actual harm.
And so I want you to keep that in mind because continuing to fight this fight, even if you are getting hurt in the process, may end up being something that is not sustainable for you. So, that said, let's get back to Ben's question: what do they do here? Like, how do they keep pushing for change? How much can they push for change? How do they avoid getting so frustrated that they leave? How do they avoid getting gaslit? There's a lot in here.
Jen Dionisio 35:38 Yeah. And like, first off, I just want to celebrate that Ben took a hard step and spoke up to their manager. And it sounds like maybe spoke up to their manager more than once, and has really been dedicated to kind of continuing to push back and advocate for this, even if their first attempts weren't very successful. You know, and I also want to validate for Ben that what you've done is exactly what I would have done in your situation, you know, starting by escalating those concerns to your manager who has more power, and possibly more insight into why this is happening than you have. And I do really wish that she had reacted differently, though, as you said, some of that defensiveness may have come up and gotten in the way of her being able to really be a productive thought partner in how you solve this.
Because honestly, your suggestions were entirely reasonable, and, to your point, very easy to implement, I have worked in places that, you know, stuck to their same one or two job posting places where you could kind of guess who had access to that database. And then I've personally just taken the job description and posted it in my own community channels so that even if the organization wasn't providing that kind of access, I as an individual could. But you know, again, just validating that like, posting on this broader set of job boards and implementing anti-bias trainings, these aren't super radical things. Even an anti-bias training I'm pretty sure happens in almost all big corporations who are not working for the civic good. But like we said, you know, culture change can be long and tedious and sometimes really heartbreaking and infuriating work.
But it matters. And it sounds like, Ben, it really matters to you. And so yeah, I'm happy that your question is, "How do I continue to do this work without burning out?" as opposed to, "I can't do this anymore." And if it matters to you this much, I just have to hope that within a civic tech organization, it's mattering to some other people there too. And not just in that like lip servicey you know, "We care about DEI" way that you mentioned, some of your leadership might be doing. So one thing I really suggest that you start with is finding out who are those other people who care about this as much as you do? And if you're not sure who they are, I'd recommend thinking of ways that you might be able to find them, you know, because there's power in numbers.
And if folks are bringing concerns to their managers and getting shrugged off, you may not know about it, and you may not know who else is fired up as much as you are. So maybe it's like, is there a Slack channel where you can share resources and articles and see who's interested in joining a conversation about more equitable hiring practices? Is there like a lunch and learn or some other kind of forum where you could directly speak to some of these topics or bring in a guest speaker to get a sense of who's engaged and interested in showing up? There's got to be some ways to smoke out the folks that are feeling the same as you. And the big question, I think is how bold are you comfortable going to find them? Because unfortunately, it's probably going to be hard to just do that entirely behind the scenes without any leadership noticing.
So what is your threshold for making waves, Ben? You mentioned fears of being punished for being difficult. And unfortunately, yeah, that's possible. If your poking is shining a kind of harsh light on your leadership team, this advocacy could damage your success at that company. And I don't want to sugarcoat over that.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 39:32 I'm really glad you're mentioning that because I think as much as I want to urge people to like, get out there and make change and be bold, we do have to think about our own safety and our own security. And so something I might ask Ben is, what risks can you afford to take? And I think that's a really personal question. It's tied up in a bunch of different things. You know, one is identity. Like, people from dominant groups are more likely to be taken seriously and less likely to be punished when they speak up. And another is maybe your level in the organization. The higher up you are, the safer you generally are. We don't know all the ways that you identify or what your org structure has been, so that's something I would encourage you to really start thinking through. Like, how much power and protection do your role and identity bring you?
Alongside that, I also start to think about what is your professional and financial situation in terms of like, what happens if you really do need to leave? I know somebody who actually just quit a job because of moral injury, when it really comes down to it. You know, they spoke up for what's right. And you know, their leadership did not care. And they decided that they needed to quit, because it was just too painful for them to continue participating in that harm. And part of what allowed them to quit was knowing that they have some resources and really being able to slow down that panic part of them that comes up for so many of us like, "Oh, my god, I can't quit a job. I won't have a job." But slow that part of their brain down and really say, "Okay, well, what are the resources that I have? And how do I want to handle this?" They're not made of money, but they're doing okay.
And so they walked through some things like, okay, well, what does their partner make? And what savings are on hand? And where could they trim expenses? And then they also thought about their situation professionally, like, okay, the job market in their field isn't awesome right now. But they have a really good network. And they know some people that they're going to be able to reach out to about consulting projects. And they have a good sense of where hiring might be happening. It doesn't mean that they didn't take a risk by quitting their job. I mean, they quit a job, and they don't have a new one lined up.
But it helped them figure out that while the risk is there, it's not as big as our panic brain made it seem. And the cost of staying was bigger, that the moral injury they were facing was too painful. And so for them, they made the decision to leave. And I don't know what's right for you, Ben. But I do think really slowing down and thinking through that risk profile will be helpful.
Jen Dionisio 42:09 Yeah, because it really does sound like Ben's gonna struggle to feel successful at this company if this cronyism or like nepotism doesn't change.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 42:21 Yes, and I think that's why the risk assessment is so important, because it's not like you're weighing the risks of speaking up and being punished for it against not speaking up and no consequences. Because not speaking up means accepting things as they are at some level. And that cost of keeping quiet, that might be really high. And that's why I'm really glad we talked about moral injury, because moral injury means it harms you. And if shutting up is going to mean that you are chronically being harmed, then I think that's really important to consider in your decision making.
Jen Dionisio 42:54 And when it comes to that decision making, Ben, I'd like you to imagine yourself almost in two different scenarios of how you approach this: you know, one in which you consider this a sprint, and the other where you consider it a marathon. You know, and if you take a marathon approach that might lean more towards working within the system to try to make change. You might go back to that manager and suggest an update to your hiring processes while there's not this rush to hire, so that that can't be an excuse for leadership when a role opens because this preparatory work has already been done.
Those kinds of activities, you know, where you're slowly kind of chipping away and getting ahead of this change, is one way to approach it. And it's going to take time, but you might see some wins accumulate along the way. The other way is the sprint approach, where if time is feeling more precious to you, if the harm that is going on both to you and to your workplace is really acute, you might need to act a lot bolder. That might mean things like active organizing. It may mean saying, "I'm not going to participate in interviews that aren't following these practices. Get somebody else." Or it may even mean adding some public pressure, especially if your organization is really outwardly progressive and values driven. And I don't think truly that either approach is better than the other. Because like Sara pointed out, like only, you know the risk you can take on right now. But I do want you to see that there are choices that you can make, and even a marathon can convert to a sprint really quickly if the situation demands.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 44:43 Yeah, I mean, I think as part of that it's also helpful to think about this marathon versus sprint as maybe like a spectrum, too. Like, you don't have to necessarily go fully one way or the other. I think maybe it would be useful, Ben, to plot out different actions you could take on a spectrum from those short, bold, sprint-like things to those long-term shifting hearts and minds things, and kind of start to see what calls to you. Like what feels hopeful? What feels doable? What fits your risk profile?
Jen Dionisio 45:13 What feels hopeful, right? Because it sounds like, Ben, like, you want to make all these changes for good reasons. And if that fight doesn't have some sort of joy and meaning to it, it's going to wear you out really fast. So, Ben, if you're in it for the long haul, the one thing I really suggest you do is check in with yourself regularly to have a consistent temperature check on how you're feeling and what you're noticing that's changing or not changing. Because staying in a job that violates your values is just a plain recipe for burnout. So as you're making these efforts, you might need to define some boundaries that will help you protect yourself as you advocate. You might want to plan ahead of time how you're going to manage your energy. And you may want to know like, what is your red line? What is that point at which you just have to leave if nothing is changing?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 46:16 Yeah. And you know, Ben, the other thing I really want you to know is that while I believe that we are all responsible for advancing equity and inclusion in society, it's not your personal responsibility to change a company. Even a company that does something important, like civic tech work. The leaders of that company have to decide to change. They're the ones who are ultimately responsible for the decisions that are being made here and not you. And that's not me saying like, "Just opt out, just do nothing, just stop caring." It's actually the opposite: I want you to keep caring about inclusion and equity. I want you to keep caring about other humans in the world.
And to do that, you need to find places where you have some ability to make change. But if you burn yourself out trying to change an organization that doesn't want to listen, you're not going to be able to continue doing that work, right? Like because you're not doing it for the company, you want to do this for society, for people. And so caring for yourself so you can continue to show up with integrity in the world? That's your responsibility. Changing this actual company is a tactic that you might be able to use in the direction of the world you want to build. But if that doesn't work, that's okay. You're gonna find other places to do it.
Jen Dionisio 47:30 Yes. Well put Sara. And Ben, I know this is hard, but know that we're here for you. And I really hope what you discover is that you have a lot of colleagues that are going to be there for you too, and working at your side to make things better.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 47:48 And you know, to everyone out there who wants to make change, we see you and we see how hard you're working. Don't give up on your values. But also know you don't have to break yourself for them either. So take care of yourselves.
Jen Dionisio 48:08 And that's it for this week's episode. Per My last Email is a production of Active Voice. Check us out at https://www.activevoicehq.com/ and get all the past episodes show notes and full transcripts for Per My Last Email at https://pmleshow.com/. This episode was produced by Emily Duncan. And our theme music is "(I'm A) Modern Woman" by Maria T. Buy her album at https://thisismariat.bandcamp.com/. Thank you to Pushing Back and Ben who submitted their stories for today's show. And thank you all for listening. If you've got a work dilemma that's eating away at you, please send it over to us. You can head over to https://pmleshow.com/ to submit your story. We'll see you next time.