What to do when your career pivot gets painful.
Career transitions are always hard, but today’s letter writers are having an especially tough time deciding what their next move should be. One’s finding that their field of choice isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. Another’s struggling to know how to position a harmful past experience in a way that doesn’t count them out of future opportunities. Both are feeling really stuck—and looking for help from Sara and Jen to decide what’s next for them, and how to get there.
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Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:00 One of the things that is so hard in these moments where you're feeling like you have no power, and the people above you are making these decisions you don't agree with it is that it's like, "Well, what am I even supposed to do, besides, I guess this just is what it is?" But I do think this idea of there being some power in numbers is really valuable.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:36 Jen, Jen, should we tell them? Let's tell them
Jen Dionisio 0:38 Yes!
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:40 Okay, everyone. Before we get to today's show, we want to tell you about something we've been working on for the past couple months, and it is now live and ready for you. It's called Power Shift. It is a 10-week leadership accelerator for, well, people like you. Because if you listened to this show, we know you care about things like having a healthier relationship to work, and figuring out how to work through hard stuff, even when it's messy. And so this program will be a whole lot of that.
Jen Dionisio 1:08 Yeah, so Power Shift is a mix of coursework, group coaching sessions, and masterclasses where we're gonna get into some of mine and Sara's favorite topics like setting boundaries and advocating for yourself, having difficult conversations, connecting with your values, and learning how to reframe situations so you can coach yourself just like we coach people through dilemmas on this show. And the whole thing starts on February 8.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 1:39 So registration just opened, and we're running an early bird through the end of the year. So if you like have some professional development funds you need to use up before 2024 hits, get on it. Head to https://www.activevoicehq.com/power-shift for all the details.
Jen Dionisio 1:57 Sales pitch done. We did it. It's not our favorite thing, y'all. So should we jump into the podcast again?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 2:03 Yeah, let's do an episode, especially since this is our last episode of 2023. Hey, everyone, welcome to Per My Last Email, the show about what to do when work gets weird. I'm Sara Wachter-Boettcher.
Jen Dionisio 2:17 And I'm Jen Dionisio. So Sara, what kind of weird are we talking about today?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 2:21 Today, we're gonna talk about something I know that you are familiar with: career change.
Jen Dionisio 2:27 Ooh.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 2:28 Yeah, both from people who are trying to maybe break into an industry and also people who might want to get out of an industry.
Jen Dionisio 2:36 I've done both of those things this year.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 2:37 Yeah. That's great. Because this week, you're on deck to be the chief answerer. So you get to do all the hard work. Are you ready?
Jen Dionisio 2:45 Hit me.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 2:49 All right, so question one comes from a UX analyst who is working in insurance.
SP 2:55 I am on a team with 13 UX designers. Most of us are newer to UX. We are being thrown at massive corporate priorities for our Fortune 500 company. We are forced into situations where project teams are running with the first idea that gets shit out without allowing time for UX research. I am watching as my coworkers are burning out, and as I am on a much less stressful project. I am questioning what the hell even is UX if all project teams want is to rush through every little thing without research.
Due to these high-priority projects my project is looked at as small potatoes and it is difficult to get time with more experienced UX designers on the team. One project I am working on the project team does not want to do, but my team is so entrenched in the idea that it has to be done. Even when UX research I conducted showed the idea is flawed. It's like, we desire to do research but only if it fits the bias of the lead designer on the team.
Oh and to top it all of my manager with 10 years’ experience in UX Design quit and was replaced by a Business Analyst who has no fucking idea what UX Design is. And we've been tossed around the company from IT to now Marketing where we are lumped together with creatives. Our Director has no idea what UX is either. Both our manager and Director are people pleasers who bow down to corporate politics over usability, and oftentimes do not advocate for the user but let other teams walk all over us and undermine our work.
We are all well underpaid and we sit in more meetings over actually having time to do our jobs. It makes me question what even is this job and career field. What other job, besides project management, should I transition into?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 4:24 Jen, there are some red flags in my brain when I read this one, like, "Most of our 13-member team is new to UX."
Jen Dionisio 4:32 Yeah.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 4:33 "The UX manager is being replaced with a business analyst."
Jen Dionisio 4:36 No.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 4:37 And people can't decide where to put UX, so they just lump it into IT, and then marketing, and then who knows where it goes from there?
Jen Dionisio 4:45 My heart.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 4:46 Yeah, I hear all of that. And I think, "Okay, well, this is a great recipe for creating a team that has like, no power, no leadership, no vision. I'm not surprised that today's letter writer is feeling it. Are you ready to help?
Jen Dionisio 5:02 I sure am.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 5:04 Okay, so I'm gonna call this person SP because their project is small potatoes.
Jen Dionisio 5:11 Oh, all projects are equally valuable.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 5:13 Yeah, I'm sure they're doing real and legitimate work, but we're gonna call them SP today. So Jen, SP's ultimate question here was, "What other jobs should I transition to?" So do you have an answer for them?
Jen Dionisio 5:26 Nope.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 5:27 Okay, I knew you would say that. So where would you start with SP?
Jen Dionisio 5:31 Yeah, so I mean in all seriousness, SP, I would suggest we work backwards. Because if you're thinking about leaving the field, trust yourself, like that may certainly be the right answer. But something I'm hearing in your letter is that you may not have been in this field very long. So before you run, I'd love to take a second to see where there may be some cognitive distortions that are driving this urge to just hightail out of the field altogether. And I'm hearing a big one in the dilemma you shared, which is all-or-nothing thinking. Basically, if this job sucks, it means all UX jobs will suck.
SP, I don't know if you truly believe that. If so, maybe you could challenge yourself to pick that belief apart a little bit. Something brought you to UX in the first place. Somebody taught or mentored you in this field, where the work inspired you. Something compelled you to invest your energy and learning the new skills that are required to transition into a UX role, which truthfully isn't easy. But you did it. So if you go back in time, when you imagined yourself making this transition, what did you want it to look like?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 6:50 Oh, Jen, that is a great prompt, because it makes me wonder, like you transitioned into UX. What were you hoping for?
Jen Dionisio 6:57 I had a lot of hopes. I mean, I'll be honest, some of them were a little crass. Like, I would like that tech money, finally. But there were mostly sort of emotional reasons that I wanted to move into the field. Like, I wanted to make life easier for people, which I guess actually still applies in what I'm doing now. But when I moved into UX, like, from my experiences as a content manager, the people I came to care most about were actually internal users instead of customers.
You know, I'd worked in nonprofits for a bunch of years. And I just kept seeing how hard it was to do meaningful work when we had all of the systems that were like duct taped together and didn't talk. And I saw how hard it was to get our internal stakeholders to move away from these really antiquated digital practices, and the fact that we like had such little access to data. What I loved about moving into consulting was I got to help other design and content teams do their jobs more easily. They had impact that they wanted to have. And I felt like my job was to help them have that impact. So SP like, what was yours? You know, let's start with your why. What impact did you want to have? And what did you want to leave behind from what you were doing before? Was there something back then that you were running towards?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 8:21 Yeah. You know, like you, I noticed that SP was really jumping quickly to "What's another career I can do?" And that made me wonder what brought them to UX if they're so ready to jump ship? Maybe there's nothing left for them and UX, but it really made me wonder, is there anything that still interests or excites them about the field? And I want to be clear here, like, as we talk about, like, "Wait a second, is UX really the problem?" I don't think either of us are trying to say you shouldn't leave UX.
Jen Dionisio 8:50 Yeah.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 8:50 There's nothing wrong with leaving UX. It's not a special field. It's jobs, there are other jobs. But I think it's really worth asking, "Is UX the problem here, or is it this job?" Or is it like, aspects of this job or aspects of the UX industry?
Jen Dionisio 9:05 Yeah, that's a good point. Because like, you know, UX roles can look so different depending on where you're working, like whether you're in big tech, or a startup, or working in ecomm versus government, like, even web versus product. I mean, even joining a different team within the same company can totally change your experience. I think a lot of organizations like yours, if it's a big corporate company, did a lot of hiring for design and content and research when the pandemic started. And unfortunately, I think a lot of those organizations hired those teams without already having a lot of maturity, or internal expertise to know how to really set them up for success. So SP, you've said, you're new or newer to UX, but it sounds like actually your organization might be new to UX, too.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 10:00 Yeah, I mean, they said they have 13 teammates, and most are newer to UX. And also like, the fact that in 2023, they're still trying to figure out if UX should be under IT or marketing tells me that they are new to this, so they just don't quite get it yet.
Jen Dionisio 10:16 And like, that's such a hard spot for you to be in as someone new to the field. You know, I can totally understand why this experience has soured you a bit. But again, before you consider a career pivot, which is absolutely fine and normal, like I said, earlier, I've done it. When I hear you and your letter, it sounds like you have actually a really strong point of view on what's happening in your org, which I love to hear. What do you think should be changing? Maybe your manager and director aren't really going to be the ones to drive that change, but is there any opportunity for that to come bottom up from you and the UX team?
I know you're all new to the field from what you shared. But maybe that's an asset instead of a blocker. You know, I've been coaching someone who's new to a company. And she's been noticing how it's the new people that have a lot of energy and passion to make big changes and do good work. And that a lot of the long-timers have kind of lost that drive and spirit. I think that's pretty common when you've been somewhere for a long time, the kind of cynicism and inertia can set in and, you know, if you're used to bad patterns, you tend to follow them.
So I'd love to know, like, is there any way you and your team could harness this new person energy for good? And is there a way that you could all align on the things that you're gonna say yes or no to and what you will or won't push back on? Because if everyone is starting to burn out, like, that's not good for your organization.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 11:58 Yeah, I love that idea of banding together, too. Because I think one of the things that is so hard in these moments where you're feeling like you have no power, and the people above you are making these decisions you don't agree with is that it's like, "Well, what am I even supposed to do besides I guess that just is what it is?" But I do think this idea of there being some power in numbers is really valuable. On the other hand, though, I do want to admit, like, that does sound like some extra work.
Jen Dionisio 12:25 Yeah.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 12:26 And so I'm wondering, you know, let's say that SP tries to speak up, or maybe has already tried, and it doesn't work, like maybe they get told to stay in their place. Maybe they don't feel safe trying it because they've seen bad things happen to other people who are squeaky wheels. Or maybe they're just like, "You know what, that is more energy than I can give this job. And it's like, not my job to fix this company."
Jen Dionisio 12:50 Yeah.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 12:51 Which like, valid. So if they're in that place, where they're just like, "No, I cannot put in more here to make it different," then what?
Jen Dionisio 13:00 Well, I think I'd tell SP to ask a very different question, which is like, what do you need to get out of this experience to prepare you for your next job? If this was maybe your first or one of your early UX roles, I think a lot of people can feel really just grateful that somebody let you in the door and hesitant to believe that they are skilled enough or ready enough to find something else. But you've built experience over your time at this company. And so I think that gives you an opportunity to ask yourself what you'd like your next UX roll to look like? Are there things that you need to add to your resume or portfolio or kind of general knowledge base to help you get there?
You know, I know you said your project right now, isn't that stressful. So maybe that gives you extra time to build up your UX skills or to start something new that kind of helps you find other ways to show and demonstrate skill and leadership. But also, I'm curious, like, what kind of support and mentorship can you get outside of your management line? Or you know, your project team? Because I know you said that it's been hard getting the more experienced designers to weigh in on your project. But with big companies, one of the benefits is I think a lot of them have formal mentorship programs.
And even if yours doesn't, or the mentorship pools and quite who you're looking for, there are a lot of folks in the design community who would and are happy to mentor people in their sort of career paths and explorations. You know, that might also be a great way to talk to someone who can help you understand like, what in this experience is unique to the place that you're working right now? Or are some of the things you're noticing signs that maybe the UX field isn't right for you? And whether or not you find that person in your org or outside of your org, I think could be really beneficial to find somebody who's not immersed in the experience to meet with you periodically to kind of talk through your challenges and your career goals, so you don't feel stuck by the situation that you're in right now.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 15:19 You know, Jen, we've been talking a lot about how SP might stay in this job and like, be a little less miserable in this job or find some help in this job. But I don't know if they necessarily should stay, I heard some stuff that I wasn't feeling great about. So I've been thinking about SP's question at the end, which is like, "What other fields should I transition to?"
Jen Dionisio 15:39 So Sara, what should they transition to?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 15:43 Of course, you throw that back at me. Well, here's the thing, fundamentally, we don't know enough to say, and unfortunately, SP, unless we talked with you about your experience or interests, your strengths, your values, like the stuff you liked about UX, the stuff you didn't like about UX, all these other things, how much education you're willing to go get now, right? Are you ready to go back to school or not ready to go back to school? It's really hard to say what other options are going to be open to you.
But what I think is really clear is that your time at this job has taught you some things. You have some experiences with structures and approaches that just do not work for you. And so it's really easy to focus on all the ways that the current job sucks. And those are valid. I mean, yeah, get those off your chest. But what I think might be helpful, SP, is to really take all those negative things that you're describing about your current job and flip them around. What would a team look like that you'd want to be on? What kind of management are you looking for? What do you think the UX process ought to look like? How do you want to collaborate with people? What kind of team structure would feel healthy to you and feel supportive to you?
And you know, from there, I think that can help you really clarify what it is that you're looking for in a new role. And I also think that that could clarify what you're looking for in a new role, whether it's in UX or not. As part of that, SP, I will really encourage you to spend a little bit of time thinking about the UX space, which is a broad field, there are a lot of different specialty areas within UX. Are there aspects of it that you enjoy more than others? Are there parts of it that you thought you'd enjoy but actually don't enjoy?
I heard you mention being frustrated that you're not doing enough research. Is research really the thing you're most interested in? If so, is it a research-specific role that you would like more? That's not to say there's not problems in other organizations or that like, people who have research roles aren't also frustrated with their inability to do research in their orgs. Nothing is perfect. There are a lot of problems out there. But I do think that it might be helpful to kind of narrow down a little bit what's not working, what's missing for you, because that's going to help you get a more nuanced take on where you need to go next and not just like, "I need to get out of UX, what should I do?" Because I feel like that might not be serving you in finding a path forward that's better than just like, "I have to get out of here."
The other thing I would say is that maybe it's a big corporation that's not working for you. Is it that this is a big corporation that is not mature from a UX perspective? Maybe what you really need is an organization that has a much more robust UX team that's much more embedded in the organization. Maybe it's like, is it an organization where design has an executive leadership role? Is that necessary? Where you know that there's people who are advocating for design at the highest level? Would things change? If you were at a smaller company where you felt kind of like closer to the ground, and there wasn't so much just, I don't know, corporate shenanigans all the time? Or maybe something totally different? Like, would you enjoy working in civic tech or with a government organization?
There's some really deep and meaningful work to be done in some of those places, like, I know, people who have been working on making services more accessible to people who speak other languages than English, and that they really love that work. And again, are there problems there? Yes. Nothing is perfect. And there are some real issues. But I think that asking yourself some questions about what might be a better fit for you is really the first step and understanding what does and doesn't work for you is how you get to that.
The other thing, though, that I think might be coming up here that I feel like we should mention, Jen, is that when you work in UX, you are often there because you care about users and their experience. It's kind of the whole deal. And when you're doing UX in like profit-driven enterprises, it's not really ever pure. And I think that can be hard for people to make some peace with that, like, companies care about users insofar as it helps the company achieve its goals, and the further their incentive structure is from good UX, the worst the UX is going to be. That sucks.
Jen Dionisio 20:03 Yeah, it does.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 20:04 But I think that that's actually a healthy reality to get to. Because it just sort of clarifies what is going to be possible and not possible in an organization. Like there are going to be times when trying to do good human-centered work in a corporation just doesn't get anywhere. And the reason it doesn't get anywhere is that the corporate incentives are so misaligned with good UX, it's not possible within that system. And resetting your expectations can just kind of like reduce your misery because you're not beating your head against the wall thinking it's going to become something it's simply never going to become.
But I also think that that can really help you figure out where are their organizations or their incentives, like the things they care about as an organization, are either beneficial to UX or at least maybe like neutral to UX, where they're not like directly opposed, because I think that can also create an environment where you can see a lot more space for good UX work to actually take hold. And again, it's not going to be perfect. There are going to be tensions, there'll be trade-offs. There'll be times when like the business wins.
But I think that it can help you figure out, you know, "Where can I do good UX work, where it feels like it matters in terms of things like making customers days a little easier, less frustrating?" And maybe that's not changing the world. But maybe sometimes that's enough. Or maybe you realize it's not enough. And what you should do is look at a very different kind of organization. And getting out of the for-profit space is maybe more important to you, then. In all of this, I think it's perfectly fine if what you come to is that UX isn't for you, that coming up against those trade-offs, coming up against those tension points is just more kind of stress and cognitive dissonance than you want to have in your life.
And guess what? We need human-centered people literally everywhere. And you get to bring those skills with you. And so whatever it is that you do decide to do, I think it's still valid to be coming from that UX lens.
Jen Dionisio 22:04 Agree. Keep us posted. SP, we would love to hear what you come to.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 22:10 Yeah, keep us posted, SP. Thanks for writing in.
Emily Duncan 22:14 Hey there, it's Emily, PMLE’s producer. And as the year comes to a close, I have a favor to ask: submit your dilemmas for an upcoming show. Our listeners have shared so many different challenges in 2023, like getting ghosted by colleagues after a layoff, finding out they're being paid below band, and our biggest jaw dropper, the infamous emoji performance review. Now we want to hear from you. What have you been carrying on your shoulders? What question are you trying to answer? What problem are you trying to solve? Let Sara and Jen help you lessen your load by helping you unpack what's truly bothering you and finding ways to face it or let it go. All you need to do to get your story over to us is go to https://pmleshow.com/. And then click submit your dilemma. We'll see you in 2024.
Jen Dionisio 23:05 Sara, cue me up with another question.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 23:08 Okay, I really want your perspective on this one.
TA 23:11 I'm a late-stage PhD student in science, and, after graduation, I'd like to transition out of academia to consulting/industry. I have two situations. One, I'm anxious about this transition. My resume feels underdeveloped for the jobs I'm looking for, and I don't know how to get more experience or more skills (or what experiences or what skills would be useful!) in the short time I have left before graduating. I could take a sabbatical between graduating and job searching, but I also don't know how to structure a productive sabbatical.
Two, I want to exclude a work experience from my resume. During my undergraduate research experience - which was a three year long stint - I was severely sexually harassed by a mentor. Six years later, it's still a memory that makes me want to cry. On one hand, this was a very formative work experience in terms of the skills I learned (especially for industry positions) and the leadership I demonstrated (in terms of mentoring younger students and presenting at national meetings). On the other hand, I don't want to be associated with it. Being sexually harassed, especially at such a young age, hit my self-esteem hard, and I've been in years of therapy to rectify that impact. Seeing any reference to that mentor, even indirectly, on my resume feels...yucky. I'm conflicted because I already don't have a lot of experiences to put on my resume, and taking something out would make what's already small even smaller.
How do I handle writing about an uncomfortable yet formative work experience as I prepare my resume for a career transition?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 24:38 So let's call this person TA for "Transitioning Academic." And first of all, what I want to say is TA, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry you've gone through this. I can hear how much it hurt you. And I also just want to acknowledge how much you've accomplished here. Like, you made it through the harassment. You've made it almost all the way through a PhD program, and you've taken the time to get help, and to work on healing from that experience. And I just, I know you've worked really hard to get here.
Jen Dionisio 25:08 Yeah, I really want to second that. That was well put, Sara.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 25:11 So Jen, let's start with where TA is now. They've worked hard. The next thing for them to do is to make a big scary move out of academia, into consulting. They're worried. They're worried about their resume, they're worried they don't have enough experience. So now what?
Jen Dionisio 25:27 Well, I think TA raised a really important point, which is like when you're new to a field, you don't always know what you don't know. And I think that's actually the perfect place for TA to begin working through some of these worries they have. If you're entering a new field, TA, yeah, it's absolutely possible that your resume is underdeveloped. But I also wonder if there is a chance that you may be overly self-critical about what you do or don't have on your resume. And I think that's going to be really hard for you to sort out on your own. You know, so maybe it's time to give that resume a rest for a bit, and do a little bit of research. Who do you know that does consulting, especially in the areas where your expertise is? Maybe some of those people are in your network, maybe it's professors who've worked in that world before, maybe it's people you can meet through your alumni network, or like someone you find on LinkedIn.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 26:31 I'm imagining TA getting super freaked out at that one.
Jen Dionisio 26:35 What, you don't want to cold call strangers?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 26:38 I don't know what their sort of vibe is on networking, but I know that for a lot of people it's real hard. And they often avoid that kind of outreach to people they don't know because that can feel really vulnerable. I mean, it is vulnerable. TA, I can imagine you could be afraid of like wasting somebody's time or being rejected. I think this might be a place, though, where some bravery is really going to help you, TA, because, you know, one of the things I know is that it's pretty common for people who are established in their field to want to help other people.
Jen Dionisio 27:12 Yeah.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 27:12 To want to make it easier for new people to enter the field. And one of the problems they often run into is that they get outreach from people who like haven't done any research and don't really know what they're asking for. So I think if you're willing to put yourself out there a little bit and find some people who have made the jump that you're trying to make, like people who have jumped from a similar academic program to an industry job in the field you're applying to, if you make an effort to find people that are matching a profile that's pretty aligned with what you're trying to do, and you can ask them some specific questions about how they made that possible for themselves and what they might recommend to you, I think that's brave. But I think that that might be really powerful.
The other thing I was thinking about is like, if you can look for people who've done that relatively recently, that is also beneficial, because they're gonna have the best insight on the expectations in the job market right now. Sometimes people who, let's say, got a PhD 20 years ago, and they're like, "Oh, yeah, it's easy. You just kind of walk in," and you're like, "Wait, is that still true?" And the answer is no, that is not still true. It's not useful. So sometimes people who have been at it for a while, it's like, they just don't necessarily know what it's like for people right now.
But what about the people who are just a little bit ahead of you on this particular path or a similar path? What would they suggest you focus on in your application materials? What did their resumes look like when they got into those roles? Can you do some like just backward magic on LinkedIn and be like, "Oh, what did they do and what is showing up before they were in the role that they're in?" I think that it'd be really helpful to figure out which of the gaps you have that are actually critical to try to fill and maybe which things don't matter as much.
Jen Dionisio 28:56 Yeah. And I think maybe some of those people may look at your resume and be able to share things like, "Oh, you do have this great experience, but it's positioned in a way that people in this organization might not understand." I know I had somebody do that for a job for me. And it was so helpful to have them look at my resume and be like, "Yeah, this is great, but swap out some of these keywords, because this is what we call it here."
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 29:20 Yeah.
Jen Dionisio 29:21 Super helpful. And I know it might feel like you need to check every box to be eligible for a job. There's a whole lot of research around how people do that. But if it makes you feel better, there are a whole bunch of required skills that I didn't have when I got my first corporate consulting job, and it's okay if you have a few of them, too. As for getting those skills like that's going to really depend on what they are.
So before you know the answer, like, something I'm curious about is how much you're willing to invest. Because there's a really big difference between like taking a four-hour training so you learn how to use a piece of software versus deciding that in order to be competitive, you need to go get an MBA. And I'd love to know what that line is for you, you know, where you say, "I need a break from learning, even if it means I'm not hitting the job market at the front of the pack."
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 30:19 And it's about money, too, right? I don't know, TA's situation, but I know that for a lot of people, I'm gonna even guess like most people, getting a job as is kind of important. And also that, you know, they may be coming out of a PhD program where there's funding, usually not like a ton of money, you're not living large. But maybe you're doing research, or you're teaching, and so there's some funding there, you're not going to debt for it.
But like, if you need to sign up for a bootcamp or an MBA, that's usually going to be like a steep price tag. And I think what I would suggest to TA is that before they start signing on for more, that they maybe really investigate where that feeling is coming from that they need more. Because I'm kind of wondering if being in like, learner mode, or student mode is a comfortable place for TA to sit. Like, "I don't know, I'm just, I'm still a student, I don't really have that much experience."
Jen Dionisio 31:12 Yeah, I know I default to that mode really quickly."
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 31:15 Because it's safe. And it's comfortable to be like, "I'm in learning mode. I don't have to have all the answers." And there are times when that's like a really, really healthy way to look at it. But there are other times where keeping ourselves in learning mode is actually a way to avoid the vulnerability that comes with owning your knowledge and experience and putting yourself out there. And I have seen it lead to this chronic cycle of like, "Oh, yeah, I'm totally gonna apply for jobs. Just as soon as I take one more class, do one more program, read a few more books, then I'll be prepared."
And that goes on and on and on, where there's always one more thing that will then make you prepared enough to get out of learning mode and into the actual doing mode. And I don't want that for you, TA, because I think that that can be a place that's like comfortable to sit in, but ultimately pretty miserable. So TA, something I really suggest you think about is whether some of that's showing up for you here, whether some part of this is more like craving that safety of still being in a student role versus figuring out the expectations for what it means to be a professional.
If that's the case, one of the things I want to recommend to TA is actually focusing in not on the things that they lack and the gaps in their resume. But really spending some time focusing on what they bring, the things that they know and what they have. Because like you don't have to have it figured out in every regard. But it might be time to start seeing the experiences you do have ta as being valid. And being enough.
Jen Dionisio 32:51 Yeah, I think enough is such a powerful word in this context.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 32:56 So okay, this part of the conversation is messy, but it's, you know, it's relatively straightforward. It's about like applying for jobs. "Do I have the experience?" But Jen, I want to talk about this other, I think much stickier part of TA's question. What do they do about this traumatic experience with sexual harassment?
Jen Dionisio 33:14 I think that TA, I'm sorry that you had to ask us this question. And it's just so unfair that you did. Let's say you just leave this experience off your resume. That's okay. Your resume is not legally binding. It doesn't have any set unbreakable rules, like you can put on it whatever you want.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 33:39 I mean, I don't recommend lying. But...
Jen Dionisio 33:42 I mean, you'll deal with the consequences.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 33:46 I think, you know, people edit what's on their resume all the time, people leave things off all the time. And the other thing I was thinking about is that, you know, TA, this experience looms really large for you. And for good reason. It was a formative experience. It sounds like in a lot of ways, some of them very negative. And so of course, it's going to feel really big to you. But I think it might be helpful to remember that for other people, this is an undergrad research job from six years ago.
And consulting isn't academia. In academic circles, mentors name might mean a lot and that undergrad research might be taken seriously. In industry jobs, oftentimes employers don't pay as much attention to work experience from academia. And they oftentimes really discard work experience you had during your undergrad no matter what it was. That's not always fair either. But I think it might be that this is going to be more of a blip to them than it feels like to you. And what that means for you is that leaving it off entirely might protect your wellbeing and actually not cost you that much in terms of your resume.
Jen Dionisio 34:51 Yeah. I mean, TA, you mentioned that the memory of this experience, you know, really makes you cry. And I'm wondering If in addition to not wanting to be associated with the project, if you also don't want to talk about it, ever. And if that's the case, let it go. But because you're writing in to us, I'm guessing it's not quite that clear cut for you. So if you do include it, the question I'd ask is, how can you do that with bare minimum harm to yourself?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 35:25 Yeah, I was thinking about that. And I noticed that TA mentioned feeling yucky to even have their mentor indirectly mentioned, which makes it sound like it might be tricky to talk about any of the work in the resume. But I think there are a few things that they might do that would help them speak to their accomplishments without talking about this mentor, explicitly.
TA, you mentioned that some of the really valuable work was giving presentations at these different events. Is there a way that you could create a spot on your resume for presentations and just list out the titles of the ones that you gave and the events and dates you gave them at? Does it matter that it was actually you know, like with her for that mentor? I would argue maybe that's not that important.
You could also look at making the job part of your undergrad listing as opposed to its own listing, like, instead of making it a separate job listing, what if it's just some bullet points about the research you did during undergrad listed with your undergrad college experience. Then you highlight the experience, but you effectively erase the person. And again, it was six years ago. The skills that you acquired might matter to an interviewer, but I don't know that the specifics of the role will be as important. And I also think it is perfectly valid to name some of those skills and name that expertise, but then leave out the details of the role itself.
Jen Dionisio 36:45 I really like those ideas, Sara, but I also just, I hate that TA doesn't get to claim this experience that they had.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 36:54 Yeah. I mean, I've thought about this a lot in my own life. You know, one of the things I've thought a lot about is the way that abuse kind of has this really long-tail effect. Like, there's the abuse itself, or the harassment itself in their case. And the trauma of that, takes something from you. You know, it kind of breaks your sense of agency or your sense of safety, your sense of trust. But I think the thing that often is not talked about enough is like the way that that can keep taking from you because it takes your time. Like it takes so much time. TA mentioned how much time they've spent, you know, in therapy working to heal from this time, to create safety for yourself, time to like reconstruct your identity.
I mean, I think about all of the time I have spent trying to make sense of abuse I experienced, and it's a lot. That is energy that people who haven't been hurt in this way do not have to spend. And I remember that for me, I felt a lot of anger about it. It's really fucking unfair. And I was mad, not only to have been hurt, but also to be like, "How dare you also steal my time." For years and years after the fact. TA, I don't know if that resonates with you at all. But I want to offer you something that really helped me feel a little bit more in control and kind of move past some of that hurt.
And for me, that was actually getting to a place where I could reclaim my experiences. Meaning, I can't change the things that happened to me, but I can look at what happened to me and say, "This experience is mine. And anything that I can take out of this experience I get to keep. Whatever expertise I gained from it, the lived experience I gained from it, the perspective I gained from it, those are mine, and you can't take them from me." For me, part of that has been sharing my story, being able to talk about the things that have happened to me and then talk about how those things have shaped me, how they have influenced my work, how they've made me better at my career. That has been transformative, not because it's like silver lining the abuse that I've experienced, but more because it allowed me to kind of let go of a lot of shame, instead of feeling like this was something I should be ashamed of having had happened to me or something that I needed to keep a secret.
It helped me feel like I was in control and like I was deciding what my narrative was. I was deciding what to share, I was deciding with whom, and I was deciding when. Now, TA, I'm not saying you need to tell an interviewer about the harassment or that that needs to become part of their like story. That story is yours and you get to decide when and where to share it or not share it. I do want to ask, what would it look like for you to reclaim the experience that you had? What would it look like to reclaim the expertise you gained and the skills that you build as yours? Because they are yours. You have them.
What would it look like to say to yourself, "I can't change what happened to me, it hurt me and I'm still healing from that. But I am taking back my experience and my skills. I am taking what's mine here." If you don't feel ready for that yet, if you feel like you need to keep putting distance between you and the harassment right now, I want you to know that's okay. I have no judgment for that and take care of yourself first. But I want you to know that you really deserve to reclaim your full self here whenever you're ready. Because this shithead, this person who harassed you, they don't get to have that.
Jen Dionisio 40:23 Fuck, yes. TA, Sara and I are really rooting for you. And while you're figuring out what to do, please take care of yourself. And everyone listening, take care of yourselves too. We'll see you in 2024.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 40:47 That's it for this week's episode. Per My Last Email is the production of Active Voice. Check us out at https://www.activevoicehq.com/ and get all the past episodes show notes and full transcripts at https://pmleshow.com/. This episode was produced by Emily Duncan and our theme music is I'm a modern woman by Maria T. Buy her album at https://thisismariat.bandcamp.com/. Thank you to Small Potatoes and Transitioning Academic for submitting your stories for today's show. And thank you to everyone listening. If you've got a work dilemma eating away at you, send it to us. Head to https://pmleshow.com/ to submit your story. See you next time.
Jen Dionisio 41:23 And sign up for Power Shift!