When work makes you question your grip on reality, how do you learn to trust yourself again?
“Prioritize better,” “lead more,” “be more assertive.” In today’s episode, Sara and Jen take on questions from listeners who are deep in the midst of corporate gaslighting and help them understand their feelings, assess their options, and find a way forward—without just working harder.
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Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:00 Sometimes when we feel like we're gonna burst into flames, but it seems like everybody else around us is acting normal, what you realize is that half the people around you are also about to burst into flames and you didn't know it because they're very good at managing that.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:30 Hey, Jen, you ready?
Jen Dionisio 0:31 Almost, I just have to close my 30 tabs that are open about the history of Luddites.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:39 Ooh you're reading about Luddites? What are you learning?
Jen Dionisio 0:42 I am. I'm hosting a book club about it in November, and I'm sorry, but I really misunderstood what Luddites were. I think in my head, I thought it was like rejecting technology for religious reasons. I didn't realize it actually wasn't tied to rejecting technology so much as workers advocating for having it introduced more thoughtfully and in a way that protected them and their jobs.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 1:09 Many parallels to the current moment
Jen Dionisio 1:11 Can't think of any. Glad we've moved past.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 1:16 Oh, yeah, I think Luddites is such an interesting concept, because that term is used all the time to just be like, "Oh, people who hate technology." And actually it's like, people who cared about protecting industries and jobs and like thinking about the impact of technology, and I don't know I'm personally interested in that.
Jen Dionisio 1:34 Yeah.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 1:35 Call me a Luddite.
Jen Dionisio 1:37 Exactly. I am now proudly a Luddite. Oh, but Sara, I could talk about that forever. Shall we jump into the show?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 1:45 Let's do it.
Jen Dionisio 1:46 Okay. Well, hello, and welcome to Per My Last email, the show about what to do when work gets weird. I'm Jen Dionisio.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 1:54 And I'm Sara Wachter-Boettcher. And Jen, what kind of weird are we talking about today?
Jen Dionisio 1:59 Today, we are going to talk about something that I know is very much on your mind because you wrote a viral frickin article about it—gaslighting.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 2:08 Oh, boy, did I. Yeah. You know, that was over a month ago and my inbox is still not recovered from it.
Jen Dionisio 2:15 Wild. Yeah, it feels like that really struck a chord with a lot of people. Folks, if you missed Sara's article, it's called "Hey, designers, they're gaslighting you," and we'll put it in the show notes. So Sara, want to dive into talking about gaslighting?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 2:31 Oh, yeah. Can we buy the credits for that Chick's song "Gaslighter?"
Jen Dionisio 2:34 Oh, I don't know that.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 2:36 You know, The Chicks, formerly Dixie Chicks. But yeah, we don't really want to use word "Dixie" anymore. Yeah. They have a whole song called "Gaslighter." It's about one of their ex-husbands. But it could also be about corporate America.
Jen Dionisio 2:46 Yeah, it's definitely some parallels. I think we've talked about that.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 2:51 Yeah, hey, Emily, Emily is our producer. Emily is that in the budget? Can we get "Gaslighter?" I don't think it's in the budget, Jen.
Jen Dionisio 2:58 Ah. If only. Well, so Sara, back to gaslighting. I always kind of try to be careful with that word. You know, knowing like gaslighting as a concept can sometimes be misused. Like, I've been reading a bunch of articles lately about how so many people are bringing therapy speak into just everyday conversations, but without really kind of understanding the real meaning of some of these terms. You know, either oversimplifying or even weaponizing things like the term gaslighting. So since we are such thoughtful people, I want to ask you before we dive in, how do you define gaslighting?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 3:37 Yeah, it's interesting you asked that because actually, several people have told me the only criticism or nit they have with the article is that they don't think it's really gaslighting. Otherwise I've received mostly of responses that are like, "Oh my God, thank God, somebody said it." "Oh my God, I feel like this." Right? And so I do think that there is gaslighting happening in organizations, and I can talk about kind of what that is and why that is. But I think when we're talking about gaslighting, I like to go back to the movie "Gaslight" because that's where we got the word. And because it comes from a movie, it is not a word of psychological or therapeutic origins. So of course, it's gonna have a meaning that is a little bit loose, because it's about the plot of a movie.
Jen Dionisio 4:21 Yeah.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 4:22 Anyway, the movies from the 40s. And in it, Ingrid Bergman, she plays a newlywed, and her new husband slowly manipulates her into believing that she is losing her mind because she keeps seeing the gas lights in their house flicker on and off. And he keeps telling her that she's imagining things.
Jen Dionisio 4:41 Hysterical.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 4:42 But not only are they actually flickering, he is the one who is making them flicker. So he is doing something and then telling her that she is crazy for thinking that that thing is happening. There's a whole lot of plot that I'm not going to go into. It's not important for our conversation today. But what I think is important is that gaslighting is really a form of psychological abuse, that's about convincing someone to question their own sanity, to question their own experience of reality. And once they start questioning their sanity, then they stop trusting themselves. And they end up dependent on their abusers version of reality, right? Like, if I'm Ingrid Bergman in the movie, I need my husband, who's the abuser, to tell me what the truth is. And his version of the truth becomes de facto my reality that puts the abuser in control. And that's the point.
Jen Dionisio 5:32 So if we're talking about gaslighting in the work context, what were some of the things that you notice where that sort of control and abuse is being performed on workers?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 5:47 Yeah, well, there were a few big patterns that I was talking about in that article that I see, you know, in the kind of work that we do. And this is very much focused on sort of people within a design or design adjacent space in a company. But things like being told that what you need to do is justify your job. But it's for a job that they already hired you to do. Like, "If you didn't know you needed me, why did you hire me?"
Jen Dionisio 6:11 Yeah, why does this department exist?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 6:13 Exactly. Why do I have to explain to you that I deserve to be here, like, should you have not discussed that before you made an offer? That's one. Another one is being told like that you need to prove your value. And then you do all this stuff to try to "prove your value," and then you're told that you still haven't proven your value.
Jen Dionisio 6:35 Yup. I hear that a lot.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 6:37 And then kind of related to that is this message that like, you know, the reason that your organization doesn't care enough about human-centered design, or doesn't care enough about doing good user researcher doesn't care enough about being inclusive, or thinking about users who have disabilities, or whatever it is, right? That the reason that that's happening is because you didn't work hard enough, you didn't make good enough slide decks, you didn't do enough advocacy, that if you had just been better and worked harder, then your organization would get it and they'd care.
But we're actually talking about like shareholder-driven corporations, or VC-backed companies that are really like operating under a single mandate, which is all about making money or scaling fast, right? Like, their priorities are not that. And so I see that as gaslighting because what you do is you keep working harder and harder trying to achieve this mythical thing that they tell you is possible, if only you were a little different. And you keep doing it, you keep doing it, you keep doing it. And you keep getting told the same message like "You haven't done enough."
And I think what that does to people, again, is it shifts their sense of reality. They start to lose their own perspective on their own worth, their own value. They start to like lose connection to the reason they got into this work in the first place. And they start really being dependent on the organization's definition of reality. And it's really damaging, because it causes more and more overworking and fewer and fewer rewards for that overwork.
Jen Dionisio 8:12 Yeah.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 8:12 And that's the gaslighting working for the company, right? Because they've just manipulated you to kind of like sacrifice yourself and your sense of reality and go along with whatever they want.
Jen Dionisio 8:22 God and you're right, I feel like this is something I've been talking to a lot of clients about, you know, especially when they start to come out of that moment where they're like, "Wait, maybe it's not me." And there's so much surprise and kind of horror that they didn't notice it until now or that they kind of accepted the company line as as the truth over their own.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 8:48 Yeah. And I think that this idea that, like, "It's me, I'm the problem," it's really pervasive. And part of that is that, you know, oftentimes, it's what you're told, like, that's literally what the organization trains you to believe. The other part is that our brains, are really primed to take things on as our personal responsibility or our personal fault because in a lot of ways, that's actually easier for our brain to wrap its head around, like, if I believe it's my fault, then I'm in control still, and I can fix it.
But if I believe that it's like this big organizational issue or societal issue, that starts to feel overwhelming, and so sometimes our brains will actually recast situations as if we have more personal control. So like, "If I just work harder then I can fix it," gives me a fake sense of control. And so that's why I think it's really important to both talk about the system stuff, like what needs to change in our organizations, how do we hold them accountable, but also the personal stuff, which is like, how do we break free of that gaslighting? And how do we recognize it and learn not to internalize it so that we don't wind up in these places where we're like overburdening ourselves?
Jen Dionisio 9:56 I mean, I imagine your options really change when you are aware of those sort of structural issues. You know, it's not that there aren't things that you want to do yourself. But without that kind of awareness, you could really just go down some very different paths that all exhaust you.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 10:17 Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, how we tend to do around here. It's like, we want to do the personal work, like, what are the things we can do for ourselves? This is our life, how do we take control of our lives? But how do we do it in a way that is really like aware of the systems and structures around us and sort of the political landscape or, or social landscape so that it doesn't just fall into just another story about how you have to fix yourself?
Jen Dionisio 10:40 Yeah.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 10:41 And it's more like how you have to get some distance from all that BS so that you can learn to live in this society as it exists right now.
Jen Dionisio 10:48 Yeah, Sara, you're right on. And I think that's a perfect lead in to starting our first question of the day, which is coming from someone will call DB for Do Better. And I think you'll see why.
DB 11:04 I am currently sitting on my company's first-ever employee resource group for women in the workplace. I'm in tech consulting, and it's incredulous to me that it's 2023 and this didn't exist before now. But the worst part is that the highlights of the advice given by this panel are to "be more assertive," "build a social network," "create a personal leadership style," and "focus on work/life balance" as if those are suggestions that make sense for women and/or as if those are the kinds of things that really make a difference to include women in leadership roles in the corporate world.
This feels very much like a box being checked to report back to a board of directors or meet some ESG guidelines without any actual teeth in them. Why are women expected to do all of the work to make women successful in the workplace?How do I contain my frustration so that I can continue to be a positive influence in my company and on my team when I am expecting to burst into flames at any moment? I know this is a particularly difficult challenge in the tech industry, where gender parity is much more difficult to come by, but this approach feels worse than them doing nothing. Telling a group of women how valuable we are as if we don't already know is infuriating. Covering this topic in a company-wide all hands would be more impactful.
Jen Dionisio 12:13 Well, clearly, DB just needs to be more assertive, right?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 12:17 Yes. Well, as long as she's not aggressive, because you got to stay likable.
Jen Dionisio 12:20 Yes, absolutely. Just gently assertive.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 12:26 That was too much. Sorry.
Jen Dionisio 12:27 Oh, no. Oh, wait. I'll lower my voice also. Oh, big groans all around. And Sara, I think there are a few topics to tease out of this single dilemma. But before we talk about how DB can kind of hold back her frustration, let's talk a little bit about why is she so frustrated. Let me ask what is your experience with employee resource groups?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 12:51 Yeah, let's talk about ERGs. Quite an evocative sound: Erg. Erg. I've worked on a lot of programming with ERGs, like workshops for ERGs, especially women's arcs, and they can sure feel like an erg. My take is that they're great in theory, the idea is that an ERG is a place where people from a particular group that is underrepresented in the workplace, or that faces specific challenges in the workplace, or that is systematically oppressed in society, like where they can get together and talk about their experiences and their needs, and how the workplace can support them. And so you might have one that is for LGBTQIA folks, you might have one that's for people of color, or from a specific ethnicity or background, etc, etc, right?
And so that sounds great. But I think in practice, they can just be all over the map. And I think a lot of it depends on how seriously the organization takes them. So at their best, what I have seen is that the ERG has funding and support from leadership, like they have a budget. And what that signifies is that the organization takes that seriously as something that is worth investing in and is something that is real. And so for example, I think in the best scenarios, the people who are running the ERGs actually get paid to do it. For example, at LinkedIn, they pay an extra $10k a year as an extra bonus, if you are leading one of their ERGs.
Jen Dionisio 14:09 Right on.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 14:10 And at other places, it might not be additional salary, but it's a specific percentage of your time that is formally allocated and protected for that work. And so again, it really says "This matters. We believe this is valuable work. And we are invested in it." As opposed to the other way of seeing it with just sort of like this is some volunteer shit that you have to do because you're a woman.
Jen Dionisio 14:31 Oh, that's been all of my experience.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 14:31 And don't you support other women? Yeah, so that's one piece of it. And then on top of that, I think the organization has to trust the people who are running it and the members of that group to figure out what that community needs. What are the real challenges that they face and what support would be most helpful? I have seen situations where there's kind of like directives given from let's say, HR or something like that about what the ERG should be doing or like what kinds of speakers it should have, and then the ERG is allowed to go find those people.
But it's like kind of predetermined areas that somebody else has decided matter. Like, "Ladies, you all need more confidence." You can tell how I feel about that. But this is really where I think a lot of ERGs stall out because when the challenges that people face in the organization are because of the organization, what the ERG needs to be able to do is surface that to leadership in the company, right? They need to be able to say like, "Hey, this is what we're hearing amongst this community of, let's say, in this case, women, right, this is what we're hearing amongst this community. Can we elevate that to leadership and have them actually do something that would improve the experience of this group in this workplace?"
Or, "Hey, we've realized in this group that our org as a whole could use some training around inclusive language or like common gender bias situations at work." And that that actually becomes something the whole group is trained on, as I think our letter writer mentioned, right?
Jen Dionisio 15:58 Yeah.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 15:58 Basically, what that is, is like the ERD becomes a way to surface what that community needs, and then to bring those needs to people in the organization who can actually make changes. That's rare, because I think in a lot of situations, what actually happens is that the ERG is there to just sort of like be a nice place for the people in that group to go. But there is no real dialogue between what's happening within that community and the broader organization.
Jen Dionisio 16:26 Yeah, that's what I've seen. And it's like, great, we had a group coaching circle run by us, and it goes nowhere else.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 16:34 And I do think that there can be value to that. I don't think that there's no value to that. I'm gonna get to that in a second. But I think that the value of that is limited, right? Because it's not actually going to shift the organization at all. It might help you survive and figure out how to cope within the organization. It might help you feel less alone in the organization and might give you strategies. And that could be a great thing. But it is not going to shift the organization. So the thing is to shift the organization and to be able to like, learn something from the members of your ERGs and do something with it, the company would have to feel comfortable acknowledging that it is getting some stuff wrong and that it needs to change.
That oftentimes is not the case. And I think that's where the gaslighting really kicks in, because what ends up happening is the ERG doesn't really have any power outside of itself. And so then all they can really do is give advice that's very individually focused, like "Be more assertive, but not aggressive," and like "Speak up more, but not like that." And like "Act like a boss, but don't forget to be a team player." And that's really where so much gaslighting happens, because they're trying to figure out how do we give this community something helpful, without ever thinking about the context that it sits within and without ever naming that. Right? Because the organization doesn't want to name like, "This is shit you have to do because we're biased."
Jen Dionisio 17:52 Right. Right.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 17:53 So like I said, I do still think that an ERG can be a valuable space in an organization, even if it's not well-supported or even if like, what happens in that group doesn't make its way out. If members get support from one another, if they can vent to one another, if they can build more solidarity with one another, I think all of that is meaningful. It can really help people have more sustainable and healthier experiences in imperfect workplaces, which is all of them. However, the thing is, you can't do that without a baseline sense of safety within that erg group. That means you cannot create that space where you can support one another where people vent and feel like solidarity if you are gaslighting people with the content of your ERG.
So if all of your meetings or events are about like "Be assertive, but not aggressive," and all of that kind of lean in stuff, then you're not going to build the trust and safety that you need because you're not telling people anything real, right? Like they can smell that a mile away. And so if you don't tell them anything real, then it doesn't feel like a safe place to talk about the actual real shit. So I think that that's what what people who are running ERGs can really do is to say, "How do we make this a space where even if we don't have influence outside of this group, where at least people feel like they can be honest within this group?" And that's definitely by not bringing in like speakers or presentations that are gonna gaslight them?
Jen Dionisio 19:11 Yeah, it is more of that like connection to other people. And I think what you just said something that I think really stood out to me in terms of not formal ERGs, but groups I've been part of in workplaces where, yeah, we had no influence out of each other. But the ones that felt successful were like, "We are all committed to supporting each other through the challenges that nobody cares about with us like so how do we support each other through that?" And I do see that there was value in that it just didn't change the the wider context.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 19:42 Yeah.
Jen Dionisio 19:42 And so going back to DB's, original question: she's both bursting into flames and also trying to be a positive influence on her team. I mean, my first thought was like, are those at odds? Maybe they can work together? So I'm curious from you, Sara, like, is there a way that she could And channel that frustration into something meaningful?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 20:03 Yeah, I hear your tension, DB. And I think on the one hand, it sounds like you don't want to totally give up on this ERG, like that there's part of you that wants to make a difference there. But there's also another part of you that wants to kind of like flip the table, bounce out of there, throw your middle finger up. And I'm thinking, you know, what do you do with this frustration? Is it worth sticking around in this group? To start to answer that, Jen, I think there are a few factors here that I would suggest maybe consider. If we were working together, I would actually suggest that she start with this burst into flames feeling.
Jen Dionisio 20:35 Mmm.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 20:36 Because that sounds like anger. And anger is something a lot of women have been trained not to express or even to admit to feeling. And that means that a lot of women are really good at pushing their anger down to get on with it. DB, if that has any resonance for you, I want you to take a different tack here. I would challenge you to find out what happens when you really let that rage exist. And by that I don't mean like, lashing out and throwing the middle finger up during the ERG meeting, or in front of your team, or like just bad mouthing it to everybody. But more, give yourself some time and space and let yourself burst into flames. Let yourself be mad. And really notice how that feels like how does it feel in your body that heat, that sting, that hurt, because anger is not a bad thing. Anger is a natural emotion.
And anger can also be really clarifying, because anger is a very sharp signal that something is wrong. And so if you push that down, it's hard to figure out what exactly is wrong. But when you let yourself feel that rage that has been building, and if you let yourself kind of lean into that a little bit, let yourself go up in flames, you might notice some things like what's really at the heart of that hurt? What is it about this approach that you found so untenable, unacceptable? And what is that underlying like unmet need that you have? Like, what is that pain that you're feeling?
And so DB, I would really encourage you to spend some time there, maybe more time than is totally comfortable. I think for a lot of us, we feel a pressure to, again, push that feeling down or like move past it quickly. And my take is that until you give yourself space to really feel that hurt, it's going to be really hard to decide what to do here. Because you're going to be trying to decide what to do from this place where you're like, on the one hand really angry, and the other hand, trying to tell yourself, "I just need to be there for my team." And that's going to lead to a lot of kind of like pingponging or decisions that don't really feel totally right. And so slowing it down and letting yourself sit with that anger can help you figure out what you want to do and decide like, "Do I want to divest from this ERG? Like, do I want to stop being part of it? Do I want to just accept that it is what it is? Do I want to try to change it?" So DB, that's my encouragement is for you to start there.
Jen Dionisio 22:53 I'm so glad you said that because I know as somebody who's never very comfortable with feeling anger, like even if nobody ever knew about it, and it's just in my head, I want to push it away as fast as possible, because it makes me feel bad about myself. But I know like when you bypass those like dark, ugly feelings, you end up really not having a clear picture of what's really bothering you and what you need and kind of thinking of what did they say like fire is like a purifying ritual. I'm just picturing DB in very productive flames and kind of walking out on the other side, you know, very clear-hearted.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 23:31 Yeah, like walking through that fire and coming out purified or clarified.
Jen Dionisio 23:36 Yeah.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 23:36 Okay. So DB, once you've given yourself some space to feel and once that anger isn't something that's like being swallowed down, I think you might have just a little bit more space to reflect on things. Once you're ready, here are some of the things that I would encourage you to reflect on. So first of all, what were your hopes when you joined the ERG? What do you want to see happen? If you can set aside all of your critique of the current situation, which is valid and important, but setting it aside right now could get very wrapped up in the sort of negative this is all the stuff that's wrong?
Setting that aside, and really asking yourself more generatively what would a really great ERG look like? This process is really about knowing your values, clarifying like, what kind of ERG would feel aligned with them, really getting a sense of what do I wish existed here? What is the sort of like positive thing I'd like to work toward? Doesn't mean you have to build that yourself. It doesn't mean you're now responsible for making that vision real. But I think knowing that is really helpful for getting a sense of like directionality like what does good look like not just, you know, critiquing and tearing down the thing that they created, which again, I agree that it sucks.
Jen Dionisio 24:47 Totally.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 24:47 Okay, so then, after you've thought a little bit about, you know, your hopes and dreams for what this could look like or should look like, DB, I would encourage you to also think about yourself and your place in the organization. What kind of influence or power do you have? This might be based on your level in the organization or your tenure at the organization. But it can also be informal types of power like connections you have or relationships you have with powerful people or who listens to you.
You know, I've definitely worked in organizations where there are people who really carried a lot of soft power. And they were not in positions of extreme authority, they didn't have large amounts of the org reporting into them. But they had a voice people listened to. And that is a form of power that I wouldn't underestimate here. In addition to think about your own power and influence, though, DB, I would encourage you to think about kind of safety you have in the org. Have you spoken up before? If so, how was it received? What have you seen happen to other people who speak up? Kind of how risky might it be to be somebody who starts talking about the problems in this ERG? And what it could be or should be?
Jen Dionisio 25:50 Yeah, I'm glad you brought up the safety piece, because it really does end up dictating like, how much of yourself, you end up comfortably sharing. So let's say, you know, there is some modicum of safety within the organization and DB is reflected on all of these things, and is making some moves to figure out how to move forward. Now, what should she do?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 26:15 Yeah, so the idea is that these reflections, give you information, DB, that will put you in a better spot to decide what you want to do here. And what I like to think about is a range of options. It doesn't have to be just like suck it up, or quit the group, right? For example, one direction you can take is to really focus in on bringing more critical conversation and solidarity into the ERG, like we talked about earlier, right? Like making it a space where people can talk more openly and honestly, where they don't feel like they have to kind of like just parrot the lean in line where they're able to be like, "Hey, isn't it screwed up that we're having this conversation in here, but it should be happening with everybody, not just with women?"
So to make that a safer conversation for everybody to have, somebody has to kind of start going down that path first. So what would it look like if you started a conversation with other members about your disappointment with the programming so far, and kind of seeing what other people are thinking and feeling? I think sometimes when we feel like we're gonna burst into flames, but it seems like everybody else around us is acting normal, we might think we're the only one. But actually, again, women are often trained not to express anger, or even acknowledge that they have it, which means that sometimes what you realize is that half the people around you are also about to burst into flames, and you didn't know it, because they're very good at managing that.
So do you feel safe enough to broach that topic, DB? If you brought it up for discussion that you want this group to be more than just about fixing women and to actually be about fixing the organization, what do you think? How might that be received? And do you feel like you have enough safety that you might be able to do that? The other thing is that not every woman in that ERG is going to be feeling the same way as you. And there are probably some people there who really want to be good advocates for women, they really want to show up for one another, who are really like trying earnestly to make it a better place for women. But they're still too bought into the gaslighting to see what's happening.
And so that might be another thing to think about, like what would it look like for you DB to help more of these ERG members kind of breakout of the gaslighting? You have become aware, you're seeing what's actually happening. If some of these people aren't seeing it, what would it look like to be someone who helps open their eyes? And I want to say that I don't think this is DB's job, that is a lot of work to do. But it might feel like an important calling for her to be able to channel her anger in a way that it wakes some other people up.
Jen Dionisio 28:39 Yeah, you know, I saw something like this and an old job where I think there was International Women's Day programming planning happening within the org. And yes, it was a group of women who were organizing it. And you know, me and some other managers got asked to like, check in with our teams and see kind of what they wanted and needed in terms of programming. And God, I sent that email around and within like, five minutes somebody on my team responded, "I would like to not make programming on International Women's Day. I would like a day off. Why must I create a PowerPoint presentation on like, a day that I'm supposed to be recognized?" You know, and I forwarded that on to the group and it was crickets. And I feel for both sides, right? Like, yes, these people were trying to really put together something that would be meaningful for the women in the organization, but it still relied on the women adding extra work to their plates on top of what they were already doing.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 29:46 And you know, women are not a monolith. Right? Like people have different experiences and people have different desires. People have different ideas about what feels empowering or what feels positive. But I think that one of the things that is kind of important here is to remember that DB, if you go down this path, you may encounter other women who are still living in that gaslighting, or who have a different perspective than you. And that might be deeply frustrating, because you could start feeling like they're reinforcing the status quo, they're part of the problem.
And that might be true, right? Like they, they may be part of the problem. But I would also just try to hold space for the fact that they're, they're also victims of that same oppressive BS, they're not really the root cause here, and it might take a while for them to kind of come around. So it's okay to be frustrated at their complicity. But I would say that I would just think about where the real heart of your rage is, because I don't know that focusing on those folks is going to be helpful to your well being to your relationships or to the cause. And then there's another thing I was thinking about here, DB, what would it look like for you to pitch a different sort of event for the ERG?
Jen Dionisio 30:59 Ooh.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 31:00 Like an event that's for the whole organization, and not just for the women? What do the women from the ERG feel like the whole organization really needs to hear? And what would it look like to have the ERG sort of like, set something into motion that made its way to staff as a whole? I don't know what it looks like in your organization. But I feel like this might be an interesting area to to look into. It might not even be on other people's radar that this is something that could be doing so like who would need to approve that? What would the focus of that be? How do you get other people on board to advocate for that? Now, DB, this is work, this is work. And it might be work, you have to put in on top of your job for no additional pay and no additional respect. And it could also be work that if your org is particularly low on safety, could make you perceived as like more difficult instead of as a leader, which is what I think it actually is.
Jen Dionisio 31:51 Amen.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 31:52 So DB, what I really want you to know here is you don't have to take this on as your burden, you don't have to be responsible for fixing the organization. That is the organization's job, should it decide to do so. So think hard about what you have capacity to do, what you have the interest to do, what you feel a calling to do, and what you feel safe enough to do. And think about the costs, you know, there's not really a right answer here. You're not a bad woman or a bad feminist if you decide that being part of this group is just not worth your energy. But there is one thing I want to caution DB about Jen.
Jen Dionisio 32:26 What's that?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 32:27 There's a choice that she could make, which is like, keep participating in the ERG and not say anything, and just kind of suck it up and accept that it is what it is. This is an option. And I have a suspicion that that option carries the high personal cost.
Jen Dionisio 32:42 Yeah, that feels a lot like stuffing it down.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 32:46 Yeah, because that rage the DB is feeling right now. You know, she can slow down, process it get some distance from it. But if she is like chronically in situations that trigger that kind of rage, and chronically keeping her mouth shut about it. I think that that can really cause harm over time and can really lead to something called moral injury.
Jen Dionisio 33:10 Oh, yeah. Sara, can you say more about moral injury? Because I'm not actually sure if we've ever talked about it on the show before. And it's a really important concept.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 33:19 Yeah, yeah. So moral injury is what happens when you feel pressured to operate in a way that violates your values, or your sense of right or wrong. So like a really acute example would be when doctors were having to, like triage care during the worst of the pandemic, because they did not have enough resources. They didn't have enough of themselves to give optimal care to everyone. And so they're forced to like, choose who deserves better care than other people. Yeah, awful. Right?
Jen Dionisio 33:46 Awful.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 33:47 Another example of moral injury might be a physician in a state that has introduced anti-abortion laws. I've seen a lot of stories about this, where they're telling people who are experiencing a miscarriage, that they can't help them because they're at legal risk if they do. And it's like, "Oh, your whole job as a doctor is supposed to be to help people. And then you have all these like systemic things that make it hard to help people." We could talk about the medical profession in that context all day.
So those examples are maybe more extreme. And the moral injury is pretty clear, right? Like, "I am supposed to help people. That is my whole job, and I can't, and that dissonance between what I know is right and what I'm actually able to do." That's the moral injury and it causes just all of this psychological and emotional distress. What DB is experiencing is probably not that level of severity. But I do think there is absolutely moral injury potential if she shuts up and plays along. So I want DB to really think about that before taking that option. Because it might protect her reputation and kind of like, make it just not a thing, but at what cost like to her sense of self or integrity. Her soul is how some people put that.
I've definitely worked with many, many women who sucked it up and smiled for a long time. And then at some point that pain became unbearable to them. And at the point that it became unbearable, it had already done a lot of damage. And so DB, I really want you to think about what it might cost you to kind of like push that fire down. And to know that the more you let yourself feel your anger, I think the more you'll be able to see the different options available to you, and what feels right to you. So go burst into flames.
Jen Dionisio 35:34 Full on Khalessi. I'm excited to hear what's on the other side of that fire.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 35:40 Oh, me too.
Emily Duncan 35:42 Hey, there, it's Emily. And I'm sorry to say Sara, but unfortunately, The Chicks' "Gaslighter" is not in our budget. But on to more exciting things. If you are a listener of our show, you know that this year has been rough. You may also have noticed that people have had enough, that people-pleasing, value-adding, and perfectionism has gotten us nowhere. We say goodbye to all that and hello to a 2024 full of purpose, joy, and strategy. That's why we're closing the year with an event we're super excited about. It's called Reclaim Your Power. And it's a virtual mini retreat held on December 8th. You'll hear Sara talk about how to become ungaslightable, Jen leading a panel on upholding boundaries in the real world, and two inspiring talks from Active Voice clients who have found courage and strength in being more of themselves. The event is pay-what-you-wish and will be recorded if you can't attend live. So head on over to https://www.activevoicehq.com/reclaim-your-power to get your ticket. Again, that's https://www.activevoicehq.com/reclaim-your-power. We can't wait to see you there.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 36:47 Okay, Jen, is it time for a second dilemma?
Jen Dionisio 36:50 It is. I can already say that I am very excited to hear your thoughts on this one. So let's play it.
LM 36:58 I’ve been a content strategist for about 20 years. In my current role, I support 10 designers on 5 products and manage 2 writers. I’m also expected to lead the discipline, define the guidelines for our new tone of voice, and help document content guidelines in our new design system. Needless to say, I’m burnt out. My boss has told me that I’m not meeting expectations, and frankly, I don’t care anymore. In a conversation a couple of months ago, I described my overwhelm, and she told me to “prioritize better by holding office hours” and “lead more.” She also said not to spend too much time on the writing because “the team did fine before you got here.” What I hear in that statement is that she doesn’t think UX writing is important. In my recent performance review, she told me she didn’t think I was a good fit for the role. I told her no one is a good fit for that role because it’s not structured properly to set someone up for success.
My question has a few dimensions. I was going to ask if this is a reasonable scope for a content role, but I really don’t think it is. The burning question really is: what does “leading” look like in the context of this role? I believe leading looks like coaching writers and designers on the nuts and bolts of UX writing, which I’ve been doing. I think I am leading from the ground up, so to speak. But I think my boss thinks leading is going to a lot of meetings and presenting decks. What does “leading” really mean?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 38:13 Death by slide deck is so real.
Jen Dionisio 38:15 Oh, so real. I've really been there. So Sara, let's call this listener LM for Lead More.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 38:24 Hey, LM, have you thought about just doing more?
Jen Dionisio 38:26 Yeah, that always fixes everything?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 38:29 Oh, yeah. Okay. That's said, I think there's a lot in here. And there's a lot of different ways of looking at the situation. Before we get into the question itself. I just want to flag something. LM says that they've been told that they're not meeting expectations, and that they don't even care anymore. And I want to call that out because if this is really the case, if you really don't care that you're not meeting expectations, LM, I'm not sure that it matters right now what I tell you about leadership. Because that, to me, sounds like you might be in a really deep place of burnout.
If that's the case, like the real bone deep kind, I suspect you might not be in a place where it's actually possible or healthy for you to try to take in new ideas are trying out new approaches. So like reframing and rethinking those are things that become possible when you have a little bit more capacity. But when you're at the bottom of a big pit, it's actually not useful to try to do that. So LM, what I hope is that right now, you kind of pause and get honest with yourself. Are you open to and do you really have the capacity to look at the situation and some new lenses right now? And if the honest answer is no, I want to tell you that that's okay. Like it is okay to not be in that place. Trying to be in that place when you are not when you're physically unable to be in that place. Just makes it worse.
Jen Dionisio 39:49 Yeah.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 39:51 If you're in that place, I want to give you permission to like turn this podcast off, because the odds are pretty good that everything I say is gonna sound pointless and impossible. And it might just make you feel worse. So if you really are in that deep of a hole, then I think the first thing that I would suggest is thinking about how do I get out of the hole? And how do I heal? Is it a leave of absence? Do I have a therapist? What kind of self care am I doing? How am I creating more emotional space between myself and my work? That kind of burnout recovery is a substantial long term process. And LM, if that's what you're feeling, I would just really encourage you to focus there before you try to care about "leading."
Jen Dionisio 40:33 Yeah, that's such a great point. I mean, trying to put more burden and work and fight into your day when you're already kind of completely tapped and ambivalent is just a recipe to harm yourself even more. Sara, what if LM steps back, like you suggested, and does feel like they have some capacity to figure things out? What then like, what might leading look like for her in this environment?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 41:03 Right. So I have some beliefs about leadership. And I think the biggest one that I've realized is that it's not about slide decks. It's not even really about having a team.
Jen Dionisio 41:14 Yeah.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 41:15 The realization I had about leadership is that the core of leadership is actually about self-leadership, meaning taking responsibility and accountability for yourself, and making active choices about how you want to show up. I think once we have some clarity on who we are, and how we want to lead ourselves, there are a whole bunch of additional lenses on leadership that I want to talk about in a couple minutes. But those things don't matter that much, if you haven't figured yourself out first. So the first thing I would encourage LM to do is to really look at those leadership questions and make sure they have answers for them, right, like, who are you and what matters to you? What's great about you, what do you believe in? Really know those answers because that's going to guide any other decision that you make. I will say that I have seen a lot of content folks really get stuck in this idea that because they care about content, and because they are the content person. All content problems in the organization are theirs.
Jen Dionisio 42:16 Yeah.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 42:16 I mean, I think you might know some of this feeling. I definitely used to have this feeling a lot where like, I would feel this sense of like psychic pain, when I saw shitty content, go out the door.
Jen Dionisio 42:26 And sometimes it was my shitty content.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 42:27 Oh, no. Well, I would feel this tremendous need to control all of it to make it perfect. Because that was my job, right? It was like protector of the content. And I get it, you know, you get into that work, because you care about it. But this really breeds a lot of perfectionism, and a lot of control issues. And guess what content teams are also typically pretty under resourced. So if you combine perfectionism and control issues with an under resourced team, that is going to create too much work for any human all of the time, right? Like, that's just the recipe for disaster because you are under resourced, there's not enough of you, and you care so much about making it right, then that becomes like a personal identity, like I am the one who protects all the content.
Jen Dionisio 43:15 I feel like everything I hear from people who've been doing this is this realization that even doing that it's never enough.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 43:23 It's never enough, it's never enough, it will destroy you. And it will not actually change your organization. And that I think is a hard thing to realize. But I do think it's an important kind of reality to get comfortable with. And that means that like some stuff, maybe needs to go off your radar. Because this is not a personal reflection of you, as a professional or as a content person. It is a reflection of your company's investment or disinvestment in this practice. So if they have weak spots in their content, if they have products that have shitty content, that is not your personal failing, that is an organizational failing.
And I think LM that's really important here because there is no way in the world that you or anyone can make content perfect for five different products working with 10 different designers. I would argue you can't even make it pretty good. You can be reactive at best meaning like, the designers are always going to be able to work faster than you because they're working on so many fewer things than you. And that's gonna leave you and fix it mode or firefighting mode, or cleanup mode means you're always showing up a little too late to do what really needs to be done. It means that your perspective is only ever happening on the like, back end of the of the decision and never at the front end of the decision.
No wonder you're overwhelmed. LM, that is overwhelming. And you're right. That is not a reasonable scope. This is where I really want to come back to that self-leadership. While I don't believe that your org should stretch you in this way, the reality is that they have stretched you in this way. And you know it's not sustainable, you have 20 years of experience, and yet you are breaking under this pressure. So no one could do this. No one could do this.
Jen Dionisio 45:09 What a good point. And I feel like in the midst of these moments, I so wish that somebody had said those exact words to me, you know, this is not you just needing to work harder. This is a place where you're set up to fail. So you gotta do the best you can without killing yourself here.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 45:27 Well, and I think even more, I would say, LM, I would encourage you to the side, what is the best you can? What does that truly look like? Because when we start saying "I gotta do the best I can" what sometimes that turns into is, "I gotta try to cover all the bases as best as possible." Yeah, like keep all the balls in the air.
Jen Dionisio 45:46 Yes.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 45:47 And so that's the thing, I think that doing the best you can is choosing what is the work that is going to be most valuable to the organization that is going to be the most helpful for users, that's going to create the biggest impact, like figuring out your criteria, and then stop trying to cover it all. Like what would happen if you use all of your knowledge and experience to say, You know what, here's what matters most to our users and to our business goals right now. And that means this quarter, the content team is laser focused on meeting these three objectives for products A and B. And that means product C, D, and E are not going to get coverage right now. I think this is really grounded in self leadership, because you cannot make a statement like that until you trust yourself.
Jen Dionisio 46:29 Yeah.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 46:29 And that's what I really want to encourage LM to think about. Take that two decades of experience. And think about what would it look like to put a stake in the ground and have a really firm point of view about what matters, what to prioritize? And what gets cut? And you know, LM the more I think about your question, I'm wondering if that's actually a little less risky than you might be thinking, because, you know, I reread what you wrote about how your boss says to lead more and focus on the writing less, and I think I might hear something a little bit different than what you're hearing. Now, I don't know for sure. Because I don't know your boss you do. And all I have is your letter. So maybe you are getting a lot of really pure gaslighting from them. But I'll tell you that when I read what you wrote, I'm hearing something else. When I hear lead more and focus on the writing less, I hear permission for things not to be perfect and permission to take a stand on what matters. And just do that.
Jen Dionisio 47:27 That's a very different perspective than what we were talking about earlier.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 47:32 Right. And I might be wrong. But I really want to encourage them to think about that. Because you know, I'm I have been a worn thin content person. And I've worked with a lot of worn thin content, people, you are right, this scope is not doable, and you do deserve more support. But it also sounds like you might be making it extra hard on yourself right now, if you've been unwilling to trust some of those non content people to do the best that they can with some parts of this work so that you can free yourself up and focus if you've been unwilling to kind of like get out of some of the weeds and make some calls about where to spend your time because you feel like you're responsible for all things content forever. That might be doing more harm than good. So one thing I want to challenge you on here is what if that belief that your boss doesn't value UX writing? What if that isn't quite right, what else might be happening here?
Jen Dionisio 48:23 Yeah, I mean, everyone who listens to the show knows you and I love a good reframe. But whether or not you think that you are clearly understanding what your boss is saying, I think the idea of even just experimenting with how you would move forward, knowing that your boss will support you can be a lot more creative in terms of the options that you explore test out before you roll them out as impossible.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 48:51 I love that too. I mean, it's not saying "My boss is gonna definitely support me, I'll just do this." It's saying "What would I do if I knew my boss would support me?" and using that to kind of like break out of that rut and dream bigger. And you know, that's a question I would ask here. It's like what would happen LM if you took your boss at their word and "led" more meaning showed up with a firmer point of view on what was and was not worth your very precious time? What would you do? And what would you let go of? And you know, alongside that, what specific support would you need from them, as Jen mentioned, that would make that possible? Like where do you need them to step in and like remove a barrier for you? Or where do you need them to go talk to a product leader and get them on board or make it okay, that their product area is not going to get content support right now?
These are hard questions. And I know it is difficult to really think about stopping, dropping stuff, letting things go. But I also know that caring about content does not require killing yourself for some corporation. And while having a strong opinion and saying no may have consequences. And I get that stretching yourself the way that you have been has clearly had pretty awful consequences, right? Like, that's not working, you are overwhelmed and burned out. And so LM, I really encourage you to just consider reframing your approach here.
Jen Dionisio 50:12 Speaking of other lenses, Sara, you said earlier that in addition to self leadership, there are other leadership lenses to get into, what are some of those?
Jen Dionisio 50:23 Yeah, so I think leadership can look a lot of different ways. And there's lots of different types of leadership and lots different types of leaders. So let's first look at what LM is currently doing. So the way that they're describing their focus right now, coaching writers and designers, I haven't think of that as mentorship. And I think that's a form of leadership absolutely. And it's something I really value. I think it matters a lot, Jen, I know, it's like near and dear to your heart, you love that kind of work, because it's about nurturing and cultivating and growing people and like for tender hearted people that that sounds pretty good.
And I want to say LM, there is nothing wrong with that being your favorite part of leadership, there's nothing wrong with focusing there, there's nothing wrong with that being where you get the most joy. But that is only one aspect of leadership, it doesn't mean that every leader has to do every single aspect of leadership. But there are times when different types of things might be needed. And so there are types of leadership that are much more focused on working upwards and across. So managing up I think sometimes gets a bad rap. I mean, it can be a gross term. Because often when people say managing up what's implied is that like, your job is to manage your manager, to people, please, to justify your existence doing the job they already hired you to do. Like, I think all of that is super toxic.
But I do think that there is value and being able to work in sort of an upward fashion, to be able to talk about the work you're doing in your group to people at a more senior level, to be able to understand what people that are more senior level care about and want and then speak to those things. And I think that that particularly matters and moments when there's a discipline that is newer, and is not totally integrated into the rest of the business, because that's a time when people really do need to understand the value of what you do. And it's not about proving that value. It's not about trying to like justify that you deserve to be on the project. But it's about being able to show up in those conversations with a perspective with information with something that is valuable and meaningful to that level in the org.
And so being able to think strategically and then share that with other people. And we will talk about both how your discipline can best be successful in the org, kind of like how your discipline works, but also how your discipline is contributing to the org success. Those are the kinds of conversations that really need to happen upward. And then laterally, that is really about showing up as a peer with product leaders and design leaders being able to take full part in conversations about product direction, about what's going on the roadmap about how you want to approach problems. And that kind of lateral leadership, that is also a form of leadership, that's really important, again, when a discipline is new, because people don't necessarily know what perspective you bring, unless you're there to show it.
Jen Dionisio 53:11 Yeah, and I don't know if this is a trick for LM to adopt. I mean, I would get a little frustrated sometimes where I was like, I'm so sick of managing up on on different topics. But something that made it actually feel less uncomfortable for me was when I really put it in my head like this sort of like upward influence. And lateral influence is actually really good for my people, you know, it ends up trickling down to them. So when I have that sort of point of view, it actually felt a lot less like, "Oh, let me defend my existence?" and more like, "How do I get all of us what we want?"
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 53:50 Right. And I think that that is a really valuable perspective there that if you're only focused downward, you don't see. Because when we're only focused downward. It's like, okay, I'm going to give them mentorship or guidance on their craft, and I'm going to try to like protect them from the upward stuff. But it doesn't really create more space for them, they're still going to be facing like a wall of work, they're still going to be stretched way too thin, they're still going to be trying to juggle too many projects with not enough people. And that upward and outward leadership is really where you can start to build relationships and build understanding that lead to more investment. And that really has to start with saying some nose. Now, this upward and outward leadership, though that might be where your managers getting focused on like slide decks LM.
And I want to be clear, I don't think a slide deck is leadership. I do think that slide decks are a technique that a lot of managers think is going to lead to being seen as a leader in upward and lateral areas. What I have seen, I've observed this by working with people in a lot of different organizations, is that it doesn't really do that doesn't really work. to, like, make a deck is sort of this one size fits all advice that can feel really gaslighting, because it's billed as the solution to all your problems, and you spend like 50 hours on it, and it just fizzles or like, I've had people tell me like, I only got to slide five of my deck before I was interrupted 75 times by a VP. And I never even got to slides like six through 32. And it feels just like, “Why did you tell me this was going to solve all my problems?”
I would say that if you're getting advice to make a bunch of decks, I would really look at what is the underlying goal of those decks? And like, what are other ways that you might reach that goal? Because I suspect that making a deck is not actually going to do it, especially if it's a like, what is UX writing deck? Because honestly, people don't really care. And it's not because they're bad people. And it's not because they're trying to personally like leave you out. It's actually just because it's just more information. And God knows everybody gets so much information, like how many meetings were they in today? How many emails did they get today, how many other things are currently like on fire in their workplace?
I really think that it is healthy to remember that everybody has a lot going on and a lot on their plate and probably is dealing with the same kinds of challenges that you are just in a different way. And so I would say meeting people matters a lot like building relationships. Do you understand like the pain points and priorities of people who are in product, for example? What's your relationship with those designers that you're trying to collaborate with? Because I think that is really where you can start to share the expertise and the perspective and the actual value of your 20 years and content at a much higher altitude than just within the individual writing projects that you might touch. The thing about that is that like, these are really helpful skills. But I also think it's true that like, not everybody wants to do that.
Jen Dionisio 56:50 Yeah, I had a lot of colleagues who really loved you know, the people management part of leadership, but really didn't want to do any of that sort of, like upward influence or, you know, relationship building. And, you know, it was hard, because sometimes I feel like it came from a place of them really knowing themselves and how they wanted to spend their time. And that makes absolute sense. But I was always worried with some people that it was more like their absolute fear of that kind of work, you know, because it feels so much harder and higher stakes. And there feels like there's so much further to fall than with these very sort of intimate one on one relationships you have with your direct team.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 57:36 Yeah. And again, I think it's okay to say "I really love to do that work. And that's where I want to invest myself. And that's kind of my specialty." But leadership, when we think about it more broadly, it does really require making decisions and being responsible for those decisions, like that's kind of part of it is that you are taking ownership that like yes, this is what we're going to do. And I'm going to be the one who takes the heat if it doesn't work. And so that means being able to decide things like, you know, where should resources go, or what really matters here, and like what does good look like?
And that's definitional, right? Like that's, that is a stake in the ground. So it's scary to have answers to that to like, have an answer until people around you tell leaders around you put your answers to that are because then it's like, well, they could disagree with you, they could think you're wrong, you could say this is where resources should go in the organization, and then they put the resources there. And then actually, it doesn't work. Like that's a possible thing that can happen. Because you are putting yourself out there and making decisions.
That can be really scary, and being nurturing and supportive and like kind of like helping lift others up, can feel a lot safer. I would really encourage LM to think about this in the context of their self leadership first, right? Like when they think about what they care about who they are, their values, their strengths, the things they really believe in the expertise that they're bringing, when they think about all that stuff. Is it really that they want to focus on supporting and coaching others? Because that is their zone of like most powerful work? And that's where they want to be in the world? Or is it because they feel nervous, putting out a firmer point of view? What is not getting said? Because they're not showing up to those conversations. So I think it's a really helpful thing for LM to kind of like explore as they're starting to make decisions about whether they do want to change here or not.
Jen Dionisio 59:27 So Sara, let's imagine that like LM has done this reflection, and actually came out the other side being like, I don't want to do any of this managing up and out. What should they do next?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 59:39 Well, I mean, I think that's understandable. Not everything is for everyone. But what I would say is that element sounds like your team is at a pretty crucial inflection point where only nurturing the writers who report to you is not going to alleviate the pain or lead to more resourcing. And so I think it is okay if you personally don't want to do that upwards and lateral leadership But it sounds like the team needs that kind of leadership right now. And without it, there's going to continue to be this endless heap of work. And you'll stay focused on helping your people do that work better, but like, no one's going to be focused on getting more resources for the group or prioritizing the work or having strong opinions about what isn't isn't worth your time.
And so I think the risk of staying a purely downward focused leader is that, you know, your people might feel mentored and cared for for a while, but you and them stay stuck. And eventually, it's not just you who's overwhelmed. It's everybody overwhelmed and kind of feeling like they're constantly failing. And so LM, my question to you is, what would it look like to embrace some of these other forms of leadership, with a goal of building a space where the content team operates in a more sustainable way? And then alternately, what would it look like to accept that the kind of leadership you really want to do as mentorship, and to look for content practice somewhere else that has maybe more maturity, where there's more groundwork in place, maybe there's other leaders and more senior leadership roles, who can focus on those aspects of leadership, and you can really go deep on being that supportive and mentoring leader that you really care about?
Because I think in this current moment, in this current environment, it seems like you're experiencing sort of the worst of both worlds, and it's really not serving anyone. So LM, honestly, it sounds like something has to give. And I don't want that to be you, you know, you're already pretty miserable. And you're getting negative feedback on your performance. As you said, this role is not structured properly. So what would you have to lose by restructuring it by designing a structure that would actually work for you? And also for the needs of the organization in this particular moment? What's that job?
Jen Dionisio 1:01:42 LM, you might find that there's not actually a Venn diagram where there is overlap between your needs and the organization's needs. And that's good to know. Because it's probably a sign that it's time to let it go and move on to somewhere that can better give you what you want.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 1:02:01 LM no matter what, but I really hope for you is that you give yourself some space to kind of look at how you're really doing and what you need. Because I do sense that you really could use some healing right now. And that that might be the biggest thing that is going to serve you.
Jen Dionisio 1:02:17 Sara, I think one of the saddest things about both of these listener dilemmas is that it feels like they both feel like they only have two options at very big extremes. It's like slap on the smile, or quit and entirely give up. And I hate that that is so restrictive, when there actually are a lot of possibilities in that range.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 1:02:42 Yeah, you know, Jen, I think that's really a product of the gaslighting, like when you have been gaslit, it's so easy to believe in this other person's reality or this organization's reality. And when that happens, you lose your own sense of self trust, you lose your sense of perspective. And from that lens, it's very easy to just feel like your options are go with it and accept it or become totally cynical. But when we can actually check in with ourselves and rebuild some trust in ourselves and rebuild a belief that like, we're worthy and valuable just as we are right now. I think what that does is that allows us to see a lot more possibilities and get a lot more creative. And that is what I am hoping for for our letter writers and for everybody listening today.
Jen Dionisio 1:03:28 Yeah, me too.
Jen Dionisio 1:03:37 That’s it for this week’s episode! Per My Last Email is a production of Active Voice. Check us out at https://www.activevoicehq.com/, and get all the past episodes, show notes, and full transcripts at https://pmleshow.com/. This episode was produced by Emily Duncan. Our theme music is “(I’m a) Modern Woman” by Maria T. Buy her album at https://thisismariat.bandcamp.com/. Thank you to Do Better and Lead More who submitted their stories for today’s show—and thank YOU for listening. If you’ve got a work dilemma eating away at you, send it to us! Head to https://pmleshow.com/ to submit your story. See you next time.