“Don’t be difficult. Stay positive. Smile!” Why does most work advice sound like a misogynist self-help book?
For many of us, our work identity and sense of self have become tied in a big knot. When your job has become your identity, it's easy to get stuck. How do you know when it’s time to stay and fight for change, or move onto something new? This week, Sara and Jen work through dilemmas from folks looking for a way forward—without losing themselves in the process.
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Jen Dionisio 0:00 I hope whatever you decide to do, you know that there is more out there for you whenever you feel ready to explore it.
Jen Dionisio 0:27 Hey, Sara, how are you doing today?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:29 Oh my gosh, Jen, I just heard from a friend of mine, and she had her baby.
Jen Dionisio 0:34 Oh, that's amazing!
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:37 I know. I was kind of in this moment where I was, like, wondering, "Has it happened? Is she doing okay?" So, it happened a couple of days ago, and she's doing great. Baby's great. Unfortunately, she had to do a C-section, which is the second friend I've had in the past couple of weeks who's had to go in for an emergency C-section. Glad everybody's okay. But, you know, lots of baby stuff going on.
Jen Dionisio 0:57 Yeah, I wonder what was happening nine months ago because actually one of our dearest friends just started contractions yesterday. So we are on the group thread anxiously awaiting the arrival of little possum.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 1:11 Whoa, a little possum?
Jen Dionisio 1:13 That's what they've been calling the baby.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 1:15 Is that what they've been calling their baby? Okay. It's not gonna be its official given name?
Jen Dionisio 1:17 Unfortunately not, but I really think it should be.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 1:22 Oh, well, on that note—hello, and welcome to Per My Last Email, the show about what to do when work gets weird. I'm Sara Wachter-Boettcher.
Jen Dionisio 1:31 And I'm Jen Dionisio. Sara, what kind of weird are we talking about today?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 1:36 Today, we're gonna go deep on something that came up a little bit last time, which is our relationships to and with our work.
Jen Dionisio 1:46 Oh, I'm so glad we're talking about that because it's really been on my mind since Jane Ruffino, who recently put out the UX writing and content design survey, was giving a talk at an event we hosted last month. And she mentioned having revisited Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus after the If Books Could Kill podcast featured it.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 2:08 Yes.
Jen Dionisio 2:09 And she said, "Wow, I realized listening to them talk about this book, how much it sounds like how we talk about design and content. I remember her saying things like the advice that we're often given to like gain influence is really similar to the advice that the author was giving women to try to, like, convince women that they can be more seen and appreciated if they're just quietly helpful and leading from below and all of these really messed up, gendered, dysfunctional behaviors that I don't want to see in our love relationships or our work relationships.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 2:52 Yeah, I think a lot about what she said where she was really talking about how much emotional labor is expected of women in relationships, and the book talks about things like "never nag," and like, "let him go to his man cave" or whatever. But then also in the workplace, where it's like, "don't be too confident," and "don't ask for too much," and "don't be difficult," and "always be like pleasant to work with," and all of these things that really are about minimizing yourself in service of your organization or in service of other people in your organization. And I think that it really like leads people down a path where their relationship with their work is both all-consuming and also where there is no self in there. It's not just that their whole identity is work. It's sort of like, there isn't an identity because the needs and wants of the workplace end up being the only thing that they're thinking about, and everything else gets sort of sublimated in the process.
Jen Dionisio 3:49 Sara, have you felt like you've ever been in a moment like that at work? And how did you move past it now that you work for yourself?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 3:59 Yeah, well, yeah, and I think working for myself is also messy. But I would say early in my career, I definitely threw a lot of myself into work. And I was really interested in building up a profile and trying to, like, get ahead in my organization, and really trying to make space for the kind of work I wanted to be doing in that organization. So there was a lot of advocacy and trying to create a new practice area. And I really wanted things, like I wanted more access to talk to clients, and I wanted to be involved in strategic processes, and I wanted this and I wanted that. And you know, I mean, some of that I think was really rewarding.
And also some of that led me to a place where I was very fully identified with work, and I gave so much time and energy to work that it did not deserve. Like, that place did not deserve that work that I was doing not deserve. And you know, now it's different because working for yourself, you are giving that to yourself in a certain way. And I think think that that changes things. And also, my work is really meaningful to me, right? Like, a lot of the work that I do, it gives me a lot of fulfillment because it helps me connect with other people. I feel like I can help and support. And I also really like some of the stuff I get to do around, like, creating curricula, sharing my ideas, being able to like put things out in the world that people respond to.
And so there's a lot of things about my work and the fact that I have so much autonomy over my work, that feels great. And so I've made some peace with the fact that there is a lot of myself in my work, and I can't totally separate them because, again, I do work for myself. At the same time, I do find myself increasingly needing to disconnect and needing to let myself be a person outside of work, and to not make every conversation about work, and to not have all of my friendships related to work. And I feel like that's something I'm still working on. But I've definitely really worked on that over the past few years, and I can feel it when I'm not doing a good job at it. You know, like I would say, the last month or so, I've been pretty busy. And I've been feeling stressed. And I can see some of those bad habits or old habits at least coming in. And I can tell they are taking a toll on me, and it is not actually a sustainable place for me to stay anymore.
Jen Dionisio 6:21 Yeah.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 6:21 So that's kind of where I am. How about you?
Jen Dionisio 6:23 You know, really similar, especially now because, yeah, like you like the work that I and we are doing feels so meaningful, and it scratches all of these creative itches that I have, too like writing, and putting together curriculum, and designing like worksheets and conversations. And so kind of similar to you, my boundaries that I'm really trying to be mindful of is like, yeah, how do I carve out time for things that I also love and aren't work-related? Like, I've been thinking a lot about how, as a kid, I was such like a musical theater nerd, you know, and I really kind of let that stuff go. But I'm like, "Well, but I love that stuff." So I'm trying to like find ways to kind of create like that high school curriculum for myself. Like, I signed up for an improv class, and I want to join a choir, and oh my god, if I could get my neighborhood to start like a little community theater, I would be so delighted.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 7:23 I love that. I feel like getting involved in more non-work-related creative and artistic pursuits is something I've kind of toyed with a little bit and then like, never really made it stick. But I think you have a little more natural talent than I do. So hopefully you'll do better than me.
Jen Dionisio 7:40 Well, I do have a long history of running off stages when I get scared and overwhelmed. So hopefully, I don't still do that as a 40-year-old woman.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 7:49 I guess you'll find out.
Jen Dionisio 7:51 Yeah.
[Typing Sound Effect]
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 7:53 Okay. Are you ready to get into some dilemmas today?
Jen Dionisio 7:55 Yes, let's hear them.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 7:58 Okay. Here's our first question:
LI 8:00 I started as a UX content manager and grew fast in a higher position in a middle-sized company. When I started, I was pretty new to Content Design and was excited to build things up, advocate and learn whatever I could. As nobody else in the company was an expert on Content Design, I became one. Everything I know today comes from networks and our great community.
However, growing in my discipline and as a leader, I have reached a level of knowledge and maturity where I realize how bad my manager is. I constantly learned not only content design-related topics but also leadership topics. I did my personal development and wrote my role profile as my manager couldn't figure out what to do with me. Everything I do comes out of myself and my initiative. I have total freedom, which is great, but also no support managing upwards or in any sense regarding content design.
The good thing about my journey at this company is that I have a great colleague who became a friend and climbed the ladder with me. We have a small but lovely team together that we lead. We are in the same boat, and we both try to get out of this dependency on this manager that is holding onto his power.The more time passes, the more I get frustrated as I don't feel valued in the company. I can do so much more, but I am stuck under a person's roof that I can't take seriously anymore. What shall I do? Try to get a new job, leave my friend and team behind, or fight for independence?
Jen Dionisio 9:24 Ooh, this sounds really familiar to me.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 9:28 Yeah? You feel like you've been in a situation like this?
Jen Dionisio 9:30 Yeah. You know, that piece about really, feeling self-taught and being kind of tired of it was something I experienced really acutely, like mid-career. First, it felt so empowering that like, "Oh, I can seek out all of these mentors outside of my work. And I can, you know, learn from all of these experts." But at a certain point it was like, "Is anyone recognizing that I'm developing this skill set and like can I actually use it where I'm at?" And that realization really kind of led me to move on from a place I was at and try to go somewhere where I felt like I wasn't the only one that was doing that.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 10:14 Yeah, you know, I think that that was some of my experience, too working in an agency where I was trying to create this content strategy discipline and implement real UX processes, you know, where that didn't really exist before. And I loved doing that. And at the same time, it definitely felt like there wasn't anybody there, who knew how to do what I was doing, or who was like, the more senior person in that way. I could look to other people for certain types of growth, but there was a sense of like fighting against the current a little bit in the organization to make space for that work, and to try to get people to get it and the needing to always be, like, looking around externally for my own professional development. And so I definitely can relate to our listener as well. And actually, let's get back to our listener.
Jen Dionisio 11:04 Yes.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 11:04 So I'm going to call them LI for "Love It or Leave It." So, should LI stay and fight or cut her losses? What do you think, Jen?
Jen Dionisio 11:13 Well, I'm gonna give the worst answer ever, which is: it depends.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 11:18 Okay, I think that's actually the only true answer for most questions.
Jen Dionisio 11:21 Yeah. Let's be real. I mean, it sounds like LI has been able to make really amazing strides for herself and the company since she joined: she dove into a new area and became an expert in it. She built what sounds like a really lovely team, taught them what she learned, and also continued kind of growing her own leadership skills. And it also sounds like she has this supportive, and collaborative, and really friendly relationship with her co-lead, which are all amazing things. But of all the needs that she has, it sounds like they're not fully getting met. If we think about some of those core needs like autonomy, you know, she has it and also doesn't have it.
Because it's great that they've like, let her build this thing, but it's kind of not great when you have so much autonomy that you have nobody to really help you define your role and what you should be doing, or you know, what you could be doing. And when it comes to, like, a need for improvement, yeah, she's doing all this work to, like, build up her expertise and knowledge. But she's not getting that support where you really kind of want your boss or manager to help you think through what's next and what's going to really let you kind of get to the next level. And even the belonging, like yes, she has this beautiful relationship with her co-lead, but not with leadership. And that can be really lonely and isolating.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 12:55 Yeah, I really noticed in there when you start talking about things like autonomy and the need for improvement, I think that autonomy is not the same as like abandonment. And that's kind of the vibe that I'm getting, that it's like a little bit of this sense of no one's there for you, and it's all on you. And that is not really the kind of autonomy that people need in general, right? Like, yes, the ability to make decisions for yourself. Yes to have power to decide where you want to go in your role or to build your team. But if you work within an organization, you're still having to interact with the rest of the structure of that org, and feeling totally abandoned, and like nobody really cares that much about what you're up to? That is not going to lead people to feel valued.
Jen Dionisio 13:40 Yeah. And you know, it sounds like LI's manager is kind of her biggest blocker. So what I would want to first ask LI is if she'd want to stay if she had a different boss. Because if that's like a hard no, or like a "hell yes," that make some of these decisions much easier. Like, if it's a no—great, get your resume ready and get out of there. And if it's a yes, like, it might be time to fight. But if it's somewhere in the middle, which tends to be more common, I feel like the answer gets a little fuzzier.
Like LI saying, "I don't feel valued in the company," suggests to me that this is actually a bigger issue than what's just happening with her manager. And, "I can do so much more," you know, that calls out like a real longing for growth. And so like, I would want to talk to LI about digging a little deeper into, like, what that means for her. What kind of growing do you want to do, LI? And is it possible where you are? And I don't just mean like climbing up the ladder, right? The like sort of traditional mode of success. We talk a lot about how growth can also mean sort of stretching out horizontally or kind of deepening down into certain skill sets or areas that you care about. You know, maybe you're interested in deepening leadership skills that you can use to grow and support your current team. And if that's the case, yeah, maybe that desire kind of lends itself to staying on and fighting for what you need.
So that's just like one example. So I would tell LI to think about, like, what are those things that you want to see yourself grow towards, whether it's up or out or down? And I'd also ask, like, why do you want them? What's meaningful about them? What's important? Are they things that you really want, or are they things you feel like you should want? And then the last really tricky question is, can you get them at your company without your manager interfering?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 15:53 Yeah, you know, something I was thinking about as we've been talking about this is also, like, if you do think that you want to stay there, LI, what changes when you think of this fight not as being against your manager, but more as being for you and for your needs?
Jen Dionisio 16:11 Yes.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 16:12 Because, you know, Jen, I get the sense that maybe LI hasn't totally accepted that this manager is unlikely to change, that they are who they are here. And I mean, I think everybody can choose to change and, like, I don't really believe that people are lost causes. But we're not seeing a lot of evidence that this person is interested in being a different kind of manager. And so I'm wondering if LI might be hanging on to a little bit of hope that if she just does X or Y or does more that he'll behave differently. And of course, you want him to behave differently, and you don't have to let go of that desire.
But I am thinking LI, how much energy are you putting into hoping or trying to get him to change? And I'm wondering if that might be part of what's draining you here? And so I'm curious, what changes if you accept this is who he's choosing to be? I'm wondering, what weight might you let go of if you kind of came around to that, and then felt like, instead of trying to get him to be somebody else, you were just really focused on "what do I need to do to get my needs met?"
Jen Dionisio 17:18 I love that, because I think it lets LI really take a more objective look at work holistically to decide whether to stay or go. You know, I think about a client I was recently talking to who was like itching to put in her notice. And she asked my advice. And what I recommended was on an average, boring day, write down what you want next. Don't do it on a day when everything's blowing up, and you would jump to any job that would take you. Like, maybe it's a day that your manager just totally let you down and you're like, "I'm gonna burn this place to the ground."
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 17:52 Right.
Jen Dionisio 17:52 Yeah. But also, like, don't do it on an amazing day, when you're feeling like really positive vibes with your team, or you've had like a lovely collaboration session with your co-lead. Pick a day where it just feels kind of boring, so that you can be as objective as possible about what's realistic.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 18:13 Yeah, we have such a recency bias to that sort of thing, right? If you have a really good day, then we can easily get into this mindset of like, "Oh, I don't want to let go of this." And forget about how many other days are not like that. And then the same is true on that one really terrible day, it's like, "F this and F everyone." And that can make us feel like that's what it's always like, when that's also not true.
Jen Dionisio 18:35 Yeah. So like, LI, on that sort of objective day, write that stuff down and know, if it's not possible to get what you want where you are, you can start looking. It doesn't mean you have to say yes to the first thing that comes along. But if you're still feeling really torn about staying, it sounds like you do have to make some noise about what you're experiencing and what you need from your manager and your company. That may mean that you have to have some really hard conversations with your manager, and maybe their manager, and maybe HR. But doing that work, knowing that if it doesn't get better means you're going to leave might really put your mind at ease about if there was anything more you could do to make staying tenable. And LI, I also want to say, you know, I imagine it would be really bittersweet to leave this place where you grew so much. And even with the best manager in the world, you could still just have a desire or an urge to try something new. And if that's the case, however much you love your team, you do have to just follow your own path.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 19:49 Yeah, I really wanted to touch on that too, because something I really noticed and LI's question is just that reticence to leave that close friend and a good team. And I think the humans we work with are some of the best things about work, frequently the best thing about work is working with good people. But I would also say that feeling so attached to your colleagues is sometimes a flag that we don't have the most robust identity outside of work. And so that might be something that I would just encourage you to ask yourself and look at, LI. I don't know what's going on in your life.
But maybe that's something for you to consider. So if these relationships are playing such a large role in your day to day, you might also need to invest more in your identity when you're not working and the relationships you have when you're not working. Not because it wouldn't still be difficult to leave a team of people that you really care about, but because having a more robust sense of self and a sense of worth outside of your workplace, can make that loss a lot easier to weather. And it can put things into perspective.
It can make you really clarify what are you getting out of staying there, and what kind of gaps there might be if you leave. And the other thing it'll help you do is make sense of how this person that you've built a great relationship with at work might still be in your life if you do leave, what kind of relationship you'll have if you're no longer working together.
Jen Dionisio 21:14 I feel like the hardest thing about leaving every job I've left has been saying goodbye to people I really liked spending every day with. Like, they are the people I was in the trenches with through hard times. But I also recognize that having those relationships in an environment that I felt bad in meant that we did a whole lot of after-work trauma bonding that was actually really not healthy. And leaving those jobs and then maintaining a friendship that wasn't about how much we hated our company has really actually deepened those relationships quite a bit.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 21:51 Yeah. And I think that that's an important point here, too, you said it, right, like "in the trenches." It's like if you feel like your relationship was forged in the trenches that's meaningful, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is good for your well-being. And so, you know, I think that sometimes it's also okay to say, "I am so glad this person was with me through this experience. And I also don't want to stay in that experience forever. I'm really glad I had somebody by my side to go through something really hard with. And I don't want to keep staying in that space where I continue to have to go through toxicity, where I continue to have to go through feeling like I don't have any opportunity for growth, etc. just because I have somebody good by my side, while I'm going through it." It's okay to appreciate what that relationship has given to you and to still decide it's time to move on.
Jen Dionisio 22:43 Yeah, I mean, I was really close to my last manager and still am. And I was so grateful that, you know, long before I put in my notice, something he frequently said is like, "I never want you to stay here because you want to continue working with me. Like, do not let me be the thing that tethers you here." And that was such a great example that I really tried to convey to my reports too: "This is not a dismissal of me, you leaving. It's you going in search of something that is really going to give you what you want." And if LI has been doing all of this growth, this just might not be a big enough container for her anymore.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 23:25 Yeah. LI, I hope you really think about that. Is this the right container for you? And it's okay if you decide to move on because it's no longer the right fit. And it's also okay if you decide there's still a lot for you there. But I think the number one thing that I'm hearing in this whole conversation is that something's got to change because that drain that you're experiencing, that doesn't sound sustainable. So LI thank you so much for writing in, and good luck sorting it out.
Emily Duncan 23:57 Hey there, it's Emily, PMLE's producer. I'm so excited to let you know that my favorite Active Voice program is open for registration right now. It's called The Courageous Leadership Program. Here's how it works: you'll spend 12 weeks with Jen and Sara and a small cohort of designers learning to understand yourself, your strengths, and your perspective so you can lead confidently from that place. The program covers topics like grounding yourself in your values, managing your inner critic, getting unstuck in challenging times, and taking up the space you deserve. That sounds amazing, right? Well jump on it because registration is only open until September 13. For all the details, go to https://www.activevoicehq.com/group-coaching. That's https://www.activevoicehq.com/group-coaching. Now back to the show.
Jen Dionisio 24:51 So Sara, what kind of work relationships are we talking about next?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 24:55 Okay, this one comes from a listener that I'm going to call SC. It's for "Sea Change." Let's hear their question:
SC 25:03 My company’s work culture has experienced a massive shift in the last six months. Layoffs, new hordes of meta and Microsoft leaders coming in, massive confusion, major burnout. I’m a lead content strategist in a company that employs a lot of content folks but doesn’t really understand their value. I’m feeling pressure to deliver a wow moment, but I can’t seem to get on a project that has power and clarity. I feel gaslit, stressed, and exhausted, but I don’t know if I should start looking, dig in, or just give up and try to fade into the background. What is the best tactic to take when I feel stuck and confused?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 25:41 So Jen, this one has a lot in common with our first dilemma. Do any of those questions for LI apply here too?
Jen Dionisio 25:48 Absolutely, although I will say some of the words I'm hearing from SC here are kind of worrying. You know, these phrases like "massive confusion," "major burnout," "pressure," "gaslighting," "exhaustion."
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 26:04 Mhmm.
Jen Dionisio 26:05 SC, it sounds like you've really been put through the wringer over the past six months, and I'm just so sorry that this is happening to you. I've been hearing this from a number of clients and people kind of in my community who similarly are kind of having their teams and organizations have these real identity shifts, as you know, their companies start snatching up all these folks who came from these capital B, capital T big tech companies, you know, so you're not alone in that. And when you have these sort of big shifts happening, there's always so much power jockeying and kind of peacocking and this feeling of the people who've been somewhere putting up the good fight for a long time being kind of overlooked in favor of these new shiny, titled folks coming in. And that's really demoralizing.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 27:04 Oh, my gosh, yeah. All these people who have "X, Meta" in their LinkedIn bios. Huge eye roll from me.
Jen Dionisio 27:10 Yeah, you know, and so before thinking of what's next, what I would love to ask SC is like, what do you need right now? Because while everyone is in this swirl, it's really important that you prioritize yourself, because I'm guessing nobody else has the energy or focus to do that for you. So if you can fill your cup back up so that you can make the decisions that you need to make as kind of a calm and wise version of yourself and not as the you desperate to escape like this burning barge, I think that you will have a lot more clarity on what to do next, and where to go.
And I'd also love to know from SC, like, what was work like before this shift? You know, were you satisfied? Did you enjoy the people you worked with? Did you care about the problems you were solving and the impact you are having? I mean, I guess that's kind of to say, Sara, like, is this worth fighting for in the first place? And I have to guess, maybe it is if SC is writing in? So I would suggest for SC let's do a little visioning practice. I want you to imagine yourself digging in, as you said, despite the chaos. How would that feel? What would you have to say yes to or no to? What would make that worth it to you?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 28:41 Yeah. And you know, as we're talking about digging in, I'm really noticing some of the things that SC said in their question around how the company you know, employs content people but doesn't know what to do with them, and how they're feeling pressure to deliver a "wow moment," but they can't seem to get on a project that has power and clarity. And what I'm hearing in there is this like sense of pressure to "demonstrate impact, show my value," right? These like classic things that can feel very heavy.
And what I might suggest for SC to really think about is like, if you stay, how do you set aside some of that and really lean into what's a juicy problem that you feel excited or interested in? What would happen if you just prioritize working on that or found a partner that was interested in working with you on it, and almost like, let go of the idea of whether other people would see it as a wow moment, whether other people would totally understand it, and really looked at it as an opportunity for you to dig into the work and to sort of like, demonstrate your value by simply doing that work instead of being so worried about sort of external perceptions.
Because when we get so focused on those external perceptions, that can really lead us down a path of all of this people-pleasing, all of this sort of ambient anxiety, and this sense that "I have to be impressing others, I have to be demonstrating value to others," which actually takes us away from just focusing on the work. So it can actually work against us when it comes to delivering this wow moment we think we're supposed to deliver anyway. So it ends up being this like big stressor that doesn't really end up resulting in the kind of work that you want to be doing. So I would definitely recommend really thinking about that. Like, what happens if you stop focusing so much on the wow part and focus more on like, meaty, juicy work and finding a place to just dig in.
Jen Dionisio 29:00 And that sounds to me, at least personally, as a much healthier approach than the sort of third path that SC suggested, which was fading into the background. Because how would that actually make you feel, SC, to do that? You know, to be really small? To kind of hide? Like, how long could you sustain that without either getting bored or resentful? Like, are there things that would actually make it worthwhile to you? I love celebrating people who like find their place behind the scenes. Like, I'm one of them. You know, I've always said like, I would rather be the chief of staff than the President. But it kind of hurts my heart when I hear people doing that because they're being forced into the shadows, because it's the only place that is safe.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 31:38 Yeah.
Jen Dionisio 31:39 As opposed to it being what they're truly choosing.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 31:42 Yeah, I mean, I think kind of moving to the shadows can be a survival tactic. And maybe that's a way to survive for a while, SC. But I would bet that it is not going to be a way for you to thrive in that environment in the long run. And so, you know, one of the reasons that I suggest really thinking about, "Okay, how do I let go of the idea of like, 'wow moments' and really just focus on finding joy in the work and finding meaty problems to solve?" is that it kind of gives you something that is interesting and engaging. It's sort of that fulfilling or satisfying bit about doing that deep problem solving, without being so worried about, like how it'll be perceived. And then that's also a way to experiment, because you can find out, "Well, if I just focus on that, do people notice? Do people see the value of that work?"
And if they don't, then that tells you something. And sometimes they do. Like, sometimes I think what happens, particularly with content folks, is we get so focused on like, educating people or going running around and like doing a roadshow for people, and it actually keeps us from showing our impact in the work itself, instead of in a presentation about the work. And so I think that that is the place where I think like, you might be able to find a little bit of joy. And it may or may not change your organization. But it's kind of how you find out.
Jen Dionisio 33:08 SC, you have maybe had a good run at this place. And sort of similar to what we were saying to Love It or Leave It, it might be as of a natural time to move on. And I think it can be really kind of heartbreaking when that run ends not on your own terms, but because of all of these external changes. But I hope whatever you decide to do, you know that there is more out there for you whenever you feel ready to explore it.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 33:45 Yeah, yeah. So SC, you know, it sounds like as your organization goes to this big cultural shift, you may have some grieving to do about what was lost in the process. But what I hear here is that it sounds like it might be time to just sort of accept that that old version isn't coming back and allow yourself to figure out what it means to move forward either with this new version of the company, or without it.
Jen Dionisio 34:08 Keep us posted on what you choose to do. We'd love to hear how this all plays out for you.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 34:18 Okay, Jen, are you ready for our last question of the episode?
Jen Dionisio 34:22 Yeah, let's play it.
PM 34:23 I was laid off twice in 2022. The first time was expected and I received generous severance; the second time came out of nowhere, with three weeks of severance and no grace from the company. I started a new job recently and can't shake my fear of layoffs or being let go. I'm having a hard time letting myself spend money or get too "comfortable," and every time my manager or skip-level manager asks to meet unexpectedly, I panic. I feel like I can't excel in my role because I'm scared to take risks, while simultaneously saying yes to every project and request because I want to make myself indispensable. I'm exhausted. What does healthy skepticism look like in an uncertain job market?
Jen Dionisio 35:05 Oh, I feel for this listener so much.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 35:09 Yeah, me too. So I want to call them pm for "Panic Mode." And I hear a lot going on in here. I see some people-pleasing. I see some overworking without boundaries. I see just a lot of anxiety and fear. So Jen, how should PM approach this?
Jen Dionisio 35:30 Oof not to not to beat the relationship metaphor to death, but definitely feeling some anxious attachment in here. But in all seriousness, you know, losing a job is a really traumatic experience. And having it happened twice in one year must have been just so hard for you, PM. Like, of course, it's hard to trust that you're safe where you are right now.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 35:55 Yeah. Why would you trust that?
Jen Dionisio 35:56 Yeah. Right? I mean, I imagine that you're doing a lot of looking back right now. You know, like, what went wrong? Signs you should have noticed. You know, asking yourself questions like "Why me?" and like trying to find clues that can help you protect yourself this time around. And from what you shared, it sounds like you're doing a lot of looking ahead too, like, thinking about how to protect yourself in case of another layoff, securing your finances, trying to stay under the radar.
The trouble is, when we really kind of get into that prediction mode, we're not necessarily dealing with present facts. You know, that sort of like fortune telling prediction tendency is like one of those core cognitive distortions that really kind of exaggerate and distort what could happen. You know, catastrophizing is another one of those that I'm hearing some inklings of in this were because these things went to shit twice, you know, "of course it's going to happen again this third time." And that's not to criticize you at all, PM because I do that all the time, too. We all do. It's why these cognitive distortions exists. They're like biological tendencies that all of us have.
But we tend to lean on them when we feel a little bit out of control, and they give us a false sense of empowerment, but actually more so they kind of control us and influence how we act, even if it's not what the situation demands. Like not taking risks, volunteering for everything to show how worthy and helpful you are, or going into kind of extreme budgeting and austerity modes to protect yourself. Like, sure, you are perhaps protecting yourself from the worst case scenario happening, but you don't know if the worst case scenario is going to happen. So all of this preparation might be a lot of stress for no reason.
So PM, I would love to really encourage you to think about what's happening right now in your present moment and try to bring yourself back to that day-to-day as much as possible. Because like, the past is over, and you can't change what happened. And the future is impossible to predict. And you can really lose out on some really lovely, meaningful, and joyful moments making yourself sick worrying about what's coming next. So, PM, right here and now, what do you want from this new job? Because if it was just staying small, I don't think you would have written in.
What are the skills that you want to grow? What are the experiences that you want to build on? Like, what's the impact that you want to have? Whatever has happened in the past or is coming in the future, there's no one that can kind of keep you from pursuing these internal goals, regardless of how long you are or aren't with this company. And as you do work on these things that are meaningful to you, I suspect that you may see your confidence and sense of security growing naturally.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 39:25 Oh, Jen, I love this because I think it'll really give PM somewhere else to orient their energy that's not on like hyper-vigilance and anxiety. Because those things take a lot of energy, but they do not give us anything in return. But the thing is, like, without a place to focus, those feelings can really take over, and that sounds to me like where PM is right now, where like, the center of their work life is very much "don't lose this job, don't lose his job, don't lose this job."
And that is not a very generative space to live in day-to-day. I mean, that's a panic mode space, right? So with your questions, I think what PM can start to do is really recenter that day-to-day around what they care about, what they want, where they're going, how they want to grow, what they want to learn. All of which gives them, I think, a lot more grounding. And I think that that may really also help them feel a little bit more of that sense of safety, because they're almost like building it for themselves. And so, you know, in addition to asking themselves those questions that you pointed out, one thing that I might also suggest to PM is really asking themselves, "How do I calm myself in this moment? What do I need to do day to day to feel more grounded?" Because it sounds to me like, they may need to kind of have these practices to continually bring themselves back to these questions that you've been posing.
Jen Dionisio 40:54 Yeah, I agree. Sara, something I really think would help with that grounding is for PM to really think of how much future-proofing they truly need to do. Like, what is the MVP of your future-proofing? What sets your mind at ease without keeping you from enjoying and making the most of your life and your job right now? Because the thing is like, yes, you may feel incredibly shook from your layoffs, but what I hear as somebody on the outside is you survived those layoffs.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 41:30 Yeah.
Jen Dionisio 41:30 That's powerful. You survived those layoffs, you found work. You know, it sounds like if you kind of had this happen twice in one year, there wasn't a long period of bouncing back from those layoffs. So what wisdom can you pull from the version of you that's like, "been there and done that?" What amount of money would have been the right amount to make you feel safe then? You know, and is that what you need now? Whatever that number is, like, make a plan to save that much and absolutely no more. Were there gaps in your experience that made interviewing hard? Maybe aim to get those experiences at your new job.
Like, there are the bare minimum things that you can do to make yourself feel safe, and cut yourself off from going beyond them, because you don't want to be living so much in the future that you have no experience of living in right now. And in that place of right now, you know, PM, I would love for you to give yourself some space, even just the tiniest bit, to believe that this all might work out for you. Like if you knew that that was definitely the case, how would you act at work today?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 42:51 Yeah, like what if you show up to the job as if you were confident that it would be there for you in the future? What would that look like? How might that feel? What kind of freedom might that give you, PM? I love that idea. And that isn't to say that the job is definitely going to be there. Like we don't know what's going to happen. But it does really sound like you're not giving yourself a chance to enjoy what's good about it now. And I think after the year that you've had, PM, I think you really deserve that. So I'm going to wish you a lot less panic as you continue to settle into this new role. Good luck.
Jen Dionisio 43:28 Yeah, we're here for you. Sara, I am really feeling these parallels between our relationships with work and how much they tend to kind of copy some of our bad habits or insecurities in our relationships with people.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 43:44 Yeah.
Jen Dionisio 43:45 And today, it seems like we've kind of had this full spectrum of, like, outgrowing someone, being betrayed by someone, learning to trust again. Those are all really hard but important lessons to learn. And we talk to so many clients who are struggling with these things. Sara, what have you found to be most helpful for them when they're trying to maintain kind of healthier relationships with their employers?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 44:15 Yeah, you know, I think the key word there is "relationship." A relationship is something that happens between two parties, which means it involves the needs and the boundaries of both parties. In our personal life, when there's only one party whose needs and boundaries are considered, it doesn't work. And that doesn't work in our work life either. And so I think it's really common and easy to let work kind of consume your energy and your identity, and to erase your needs in the process. In fact, I think a lot about our work culture and our organizations kind of like encourages that.
But all healthy relationships are fundamentally built on mutuality. And so, something I would recommend to anybody is to really think about what is the mutuality in the relationship they have with their workplace? Do you feel like you are having your needs and boundaries met, your expectations attended to? Or does it feel kind of like a one-way street? If it feels like a one-way street, then that's not a sustainable relationship, right? Like, again, two parties are involved. And so if one party is always taking precedence, and if one party gets to have its needs met and the other one doesn't, that is not a place where you can really live in the long term and also have some wellbeing.
And so I think that the sooner you realize that you're in a place where that might be happening, and I think it happens a lot, we kind of erase our own individual needs in service of what the organization wants of us. When you realize that's happening, you can kind of switch course and say, "Okay, wait a second. What does it look like for me to start setting some boundaries? What does it look like for me to expect some things of my employer and not just the other way around? What does it look like for me to show up to conversations with my manager with my own agenda?" And see what happens. And sometimes when we start to make those shifts, we can truly turn a job around and it can become the kind of place that does work for us.
And sometimes it doesn't, and then that's really a sign that this relationship is not a relationship that's salvageable. Because, again, one-sided relationships are never going to be sustainable for us. And if that's the case, then it's time to start looking at, "Well, what is my exit strategy here?" And so that's really what I recommend is just really thinking about, "Well, I need to have a relationship with this place. And that relationship must be mutual. Is it mutual today?"
Jen Dionisio 46:46 I think that's what's so bothersome and troubling about that sort of Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus stuff, especially, you know, when you kind of change it to a workplace. It sets up such like an "us versus them" or "me versus you," as opposed to like a "we." Like, we are just all on planet earth together. And things are messy. And we have to do our best to build relationships with each other that make us feel good and whole and healthy. And that takes work. But everyone that dialed in today, I would say is starting to do that work. And it's really important.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 47:29 You know, I think that we all deserve to live in a world where organizations are bought into this being a mutual relationship, and where our organizations are expecting to meet our needs, and to sort of like, have that be a two-way conversation. And I know there are a lot of people out there who might be thinking like, "Yeah, but they're not. It's not like that out there."
And I totally agree with you. It's not like that out there. But one of the things I think that's really important, though, that I hope everybody takes away today is this idea that like, the way that we can get there is by agitating for it and demanding it. And so the more that you get right with yourself, and understand what you really need, and you stop accepting less than that, the more that we can kind of like band together and create more systems of change in these organizations. And that's ultimately you know, something that I think will move this from benefiting just individuals to benefiting all of us.
Jen Dionisio 48:23 Hell yeah, Sara.
Jen Dionisio 48:31
And that's it for this week's episode. Per My Last Email is a production of Active Voice. Check us out at https://www.activevoicehq.com/ and get all the past episodes show notes and full transcripts for per my last email at https://pmleshow.com/. This episode was produced by Emily Duncan. Our theme music is (I'm a) Modern Woman by Maria T. Buy her album at https://thisismariat.bandcamp.com/. Thank you to Love It or Leave It, Sea Change, and Panic mode for submitting their stories for today's show. And thank you for listening. If you've got a work dilemma eating away at you, send it over to us. Head to https://pmleshow.com/ to submit your story. See you next time.