They say feedback is a gift. But “they” probably never received a performance review written entirely in emoji.
You deserve an equitable, actionable, and thoughtful performance review. So how do you move forward when you get…something else entirely?
That’s what we’re tackling in our very first episode. Listen in as Jen and Sara coach people through big dilemmas—and even bigger feelings—about the wild and weird world of performance reviews. You’ll leave with new tools to help you rebound after unfair or unexpected feedback…or at least some good stories for the group chat.
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Got a work situation eating away at you? Send it to us! Submit your dilemma at PMLEshow.com.
Jen Dionisio 0:00 Take that out of your management toolkit, please. Thank you.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:22 Hello, and welcome to Per My Last Email, the show about what to do when work gets weird. I'm Sara Wachter-Boettcher, and you're listening to our very first episode. I'm so excited to have you here, and I am so excited to introduce you to my co-host, Jen Dionisio. Hey, Jen.
JD 0:39 Hey everyone.
SWB 0:41 Okay, Jen, this is our first episode, which means we gotta get a couple things out of the way: one, what is this show? And two, who are we? So Jen, help me out. What would you say this show is?
JD 0:54 I would say Per My Last Email is a podcast about all the weird shit that happens at work and how to navigate it.
SWB 1:03 Yes. So each episode, what we're gonna do is share dilemmas that our listeners are struggling with, and then open up our coaching toolkits to help them through those challenges and help you too.
JD 1:14 So, before we get to those dilemmas, Sara, why don't you introduce yourself to everyone?
SWB 1:20 Sure. So I'm Sara. Gemini. Um, I run a company called Active Voice, and what we do is leadership coaching and learning programs for people who work in design and tech. And I started Active Voice after spending a bunch of years consulting in those spaces. I was working on design, UX, and content issues, and I was also writing books and speaking about things like what happens when we don't design responsibly and inclusively. So out of all of those experiences, I have really realized that what I wanna do is work with people and help them navigate all these systems they come up against in their workplaces.
1:54 And that's what Active Voice does. We help people make sense of their work lives and feel less stressed and burnt out by their work, and also feel more confident speaking up for the things that matter to them.
JD 2:04 And I'm one of those people who was very excited when Sara went into coaching, so she could help me with some of my experiences with burnout and navigating weird work challenges. You know, after kind of working through some of the difficulties I was having in figuring out how to be a leader, if I even wanted to be a leader, if anyone needed me to be a leader, I then decided I also wanted to help people through a lot of these same challenges. And after spending lots of years as a content strategist, and a community manager, and an educator, I became a coach as well. And now I'm working with Sara at Active Voice.
SWB 2:44 And so we do a lot of things like coaching and training programs. We do a lot of workshops, blah, blah, blah. But here's what we really do: we talk to people about work all the time. And we talk to people one-on-one about their work, which means they tell us all kinds of stuff that they wouldn't necessarily tell just anyone.
3:03 And from that, we have so much insight into some of the big things that people face at their jobs. And we help people do things like find the courage to quit a really toxic environment, or make sense of how to handle difficult situations, or just how to be better leaders.
JD 3:18 And that phrase you just said, Sara, that “we help them make sense,” I think that's such a perfect way to explain coaching, because coaching is a little bit different than, say, giving someone advice or mentoring someone. As coaches, we don't tell people what to do or claim to have all the answers. We think our clients are the experts in their own experiences. But we do create space for people to get curious about the things they're feeling and why and make some decisions about what they need to do that's best for them.
SWB 3:53 Mmm. And so we're telling you all of this, not because we want you to care about our jobs, but because all of this is relevant to the show. This show will not really be an advice show, although it'll have some parallels to that. It's actually gonna be a little bit more like a coaching show. So we're gonna help people work through their challenges because what we know is that the things that work for us may or may not work for you.
4:15 The things that we've experienced are not the same as the things you've experienced. And so what most people need is not someone to tell them how to solve their problem or tell them what to do, but someone who is instead gonna help them make sense of their own solution and get right with themselves.
4:29 So that means on this show, you will hear our opinions, and we have some strong opinions about our work. But a lot of what you'll hear is really more about techniques for self-reflection, questions to ask yourself, frameworks for thinking through situations so that you can approach a work challenge with a lot less fear and a lot more agency.
JD 4:48 Mm-hmm. And something we should point out is that we promise this show is not going to be chock full of toxic positivity.
SWB 5:00 Mm-mmm.
JD 5:00 Nope. That is not our goal. And while Sara and I are always going to be looking for ways to help our listeners move forward, we're really well aware that none of us live in a vacuum. And even the most confident, and capable, and well-adjusted people can only go so far when the systems that they're in are dysfunctional and toxic. And the truth is, there are a lot of fucked up systems that all of us are operating in.
SWB 5:28 Boy, are there. You know, Jen, when I first got interested in coaching, the biggest concern I had was, oof, there are a lot of people in this field who have this kinda like, “the only thing in your way is you” message. And my immediate reaction to that was like, “No. No, there are a lot of things that are in our way.” You may be experiencing sexism, racism, ableism—we're all experiencing capitalism.
JD 5:52 Mm.
SWB 5:52 And so we gotta be able to talk about that and call that out because all of the challenges we face at work, they're not just because we're weak, or because we don't have enough confidence, or because we're bad at making decisions or whatever. They're because we're coming up against systems that are often not designed for us.
6:09 And that doesn't mean we're powerless, but it does mean that we gotta talk about the reality of the situation in all of its messy glory. Speaking of which, Jen, I think it's time to start doing that.
JD 6:20 Ooh.
SWB 6:20 Can we get into the show?
JD 6:21 Let's do it.
SWB 6:26 Okay. What kind of weird are we talking about today?
JD 6:30 Okay, so today's topic is something that we have lots of feelings about, and that is performance reviews.
SWB 6:39 Ooh, I sure do have feelings about those.
JD 6:42 Oh my God, Sara, you will not believe this first one. I'll say it's from a content designer we're gonna call Kat.
VO 1 "Kat" 6:51 I've had a rough year. My manager knows all about it. I've kept him in the loop. He's been very sympathetic in our meetings, but he's also very hands-off. There hasn't been much feedback about the good or the bad. He just seems happy that I'm not asking for anything. Well, it's mid-year review time and my manager sent me mine this morning, 10 minutes before our one-on-one.
7:13 I opened it up before hopping onto Zoom to see he pulled six columns from our career leveling doc and added a column that said manager assessment. His assessment was all emojis. Three were downward-trending graph emojis for "off-track," Two were upward-trending graph emojis for "on-track," and one was a question mark emoji for "no signal".
7:38 I had five minutes after taking that in to compose myself before our meeting, and I could not. I was a downright unregulated mess. I did myself no favors in that meeting. I wish I'd had the sense to reschedule our one-on-one, but I was so deep in shame I didn't want to do anything else to be the lost cause he clearly thinks I am. I'm so mortified and ashamed. How did this happen? And now how do I move on from this? What part of this is me and what's them?
SWB 8:11 Wait, are you fucking kidding me?
JD 8:13 Emojis, Sara! Emojis. Emojis.
SWB 8:17 Can you imagine?
JD 8:18 No, I can't. And I have received a thousand performance reviews.
SWB 8:24 Correct response. Yeah. You know, my first thought on this is like, okay, even if all the emoji that were used, even if they were all stars and hearts, this is just insulting. Like, this is not okay. To me, this would feel very degrading, and I am not surprised that this person took it very hard because this is just not how you treat people.
8:46 Look, whatever your performance was, even if you were the worst-performing employee since the beginning of time, you do not deserve this. Nobody deserves to be treated with this level of disrespect or this little care.
JD 8:57 Yeah. And what do you do with that kind of feedback?
SWB 9:02 Mmm.
JD 9:02 I don't know that there's anything tactical or actionable that you could just interpret from these symbols.
SWB 9:09 Yeah. What I get from that is, "My manager didn't care enough to spend time on this, and I guess I kind of suck at some stuff. And now what?" So like, letter writer, no wonder you are reeling from this. The other thing I really wanna flag here before we get into what to do is, okay, I have this belief: reviews should not have surprises.
JD 9:30 Amen.
SWB 9:31 This should have come up earlier. If there were issues in this person's performance, why didn't they know about them leading up to this? The worst way to learn about an issue is— well, the worst way I thought that there was to learn about an issue was during your review, but now I revise that. The worst way is via a single emoji in your review.
JD 9:49 Note to Kat's boss: this is Management 101.
SWB 9:54 Yikes.
JD 9:54 Please use your words. So Sara, to get to Kat's question, how should they move on from this?
SWB 10:02 Yeah. Okay. So first up, if I were working with Kat, I would tell them that they're already making the right moves, meaning they're already asking themselves, "how do I move on from this? And how do I figure out what's mine here and what's my company's part?" And so that tells me that you're already trying to make sense of this, and that's gonna help you move on from it. And I think the big thing is to really figure out what is it that you can take away from this situation, and what do you just wanna leave here because it's some BS that is not yours?
10:32 So the first thing I would look at here is like, okay, what is your part in this? And I will say, I don't think that there is a lot that is Kat's role here. Number one, Kat did not deserve an emoji review. There is nothing they could have done that would've caused an emoji review. So that's on the manager. That is on the company.
10:53 This is something that I think quite a lot of people would agree should not have been acceptable, and so I hope you can really hear that, Kat: that part of it? Not you. The other thing I noticed is that when Kat talked about really trying to manage themselves in the meeting, really trying to show up with some calm, it sounds like they showed up to the worst meeting truly doing their best.
JD 11:18 Mm-hmm.
SWB 11:18 And I just wanna acknowledge Kat for that. And Kat, I hope you can acknowledge yourself for that.
JD 11:22 Yeah, I hear the same. I mean, there are so many different ways that you could have shown up guns blazing, tearful. I mean, and not to say any are right or wrong, but staying calm was, I'm sure, really hard at that moment.
SWB 11:39 Yeah. And I think it's really important what you just said there, Jen: nothing is necessarily right or wrong here. Like, if you'd showed up to that meeting crying, that's also okay because again, what happened is so unacceptable, most people would show up with lots of feelings that they were struggling to manage.
11:54 So if Kat were here and they were my coaching client, we were in a session, I think one thing I would suggest we do early on is to just acknowledge all of the strength that they brought to this meeting. Let's acknowledge the way you tried to show up for yourself. Let's acknowledge how much you've been trying to work through a difficult year without a lot of feedback, without a lot of guidance.
12:19 You know, let's acknowledge that you are trying to handle the impossible as best as you possibly could. What else can we ask of ourselves?
JD 12:27 So, I think we both fully agree that Kat really did the best that they could under those circumstances. But Sara, what would you recommend some next steps?
SWB 12:38 Yeah, so I think what I would suggest is that Kat say to themself, "Okay, I don't wanna find myself in this situation again." And hopefully part of that is having a better manager who doesn't give you a review like this. But again, that part's not yours. That's on them. That was their decision. So I would say think about what you might do differently to be more on the same page with your manager, even if you are not getting the feedback that you deserve and that you need.
13:05 So if you have a manager that seems disengaged, who's being quiet, who's maybe not telling you much, I think you deserve better than that, but that could happen again. So what I would really suggest is to ask yourself, "All right, if that were to happen again, what might I do differently earlier on in the process?"
13:24 And I would also say a good question for this is "what needs did I have that weren't being met leading up to this situation? What information was I missing? What information might I have asked for? What support might I have asked for? Where might I have said, 'Hey, I could use some feedback?'" Where might you have even started the conversation about career goals earlier on?
13:48 Again, I think we all deserve a boss who's proactively communicating with us, but if you're not getting that, you still have needs.
JD 13:55 Mm-hmm.
SWB 13:56 Your needs don't go away just because nobody asked about them. So asking yourself what your needs are is something that you always have the power to do, and then you can look at communicating them sooner as sort of a practice. Practice asking them questions, practice self-advocacy. Those things are hard, but I think that those are the best ways to ward against these sorts of surprises, particularly when you have a boss who's just not as forthcoming as you'd like.
JD 14:22 Yeah. So Sara, assuming that Kat is probably thinking about whether this is a place that they wanna continue working, with a boss they wanna continue working under...
SWB 14:34 Yeah. Uh-huh.
JD 14:35 What are some questions that they might ask themselves to determine if the situation's salvageable?
SWB 14:42 Oof. Well, I think a couple things that I would start with are just "can I come back from this particular review and from this situation with my manager?" And that has two sides. Is your manager open to seeing you differently? That might be an important thing to feel out. But also for yourself: is this a relationship that you feel like you can invest something in again? It's okay sometimes to say that the ship has sailed, and you know, maybe if it was six months ago you could go to them and do more self-advocacy and really practice speaking up for your needs, but at this point, that just might not be something you're interested in doing.
15:18 You might feel like that relationship isn't something that you can invest in repairing or that you're not interested in trying to repair it. Or maybe you find that you are interested in trying to repair that relationship. If that's the case, what I would say to Kat is, okay, well maybe it's time to have a really frank conversation with your manager about how it felt to receive a review like this, how it missed your expectations, how surprised you were not to be given feedback throughout the year and then to get this review, and to really ask them to rebuild the lines of communication together.
15:51 Of course, this person is only one half of that equation. So even if Kat is interested in doing that, their manager might not be, and they don't really have control over that. So I think asking some of those questions can help Kat gauge how possible repair might be for them and how interested they are in investing in that repair.
16:13 I also think as hard as this is, it's also quite a clarifying moment. This is definitely a moment where Kat could step back and say, "Okay, this manager was not there for me. They communicated their feedback in a way that demonstrated a profound lack of care and interest and respect for me as a person. Is this really a place for me?"
16:34 And I think doing that can also help you really decide, like, "Wait a second. I didn't get a bad review because I'm a failure. This is a place that does not wanna meet my needs or doesn't know how to meet my needs, and maybe that's something I can just walk away from and feel like, you know what? Good riddance."
JD 16:49 Good riddance feels real resonant right now.
SWB 16:52 Yeah. Yeah. Man, Kat, if you are listening, we are sending you a big hug. It really does sound like you did your best in a terrible moment, and I hope you can hear that. You will come back from this. You absolutely will.
JD 17:10 Ah, so Sara, speaking of surprising reviews, are you ready for our next dilemma?
SWB 17:16 Oof. I sure am. I don't know if we can beat emoji review, but please, let's do it.
JD 17:22 Challenge accepted. So this is from AC, who is a design strategist working in FinTech, and here is what she told us:
VO 2 "AC" 17:34 I had a performance review recently that felt misguided and lacking important context. I feel betrayed. I've worked my ass off managing projects, partners, and teams through extreme turbulence and uncertainty. My stellar results were even included in my review, but my company force ranks performance. So someone always has to fall at the bottom. This time it was me. It was maddening to sit through a performance review that was designed to fit an agenda rather than reflecting results and the feedback of my colleagues.
18:08 Now I'm on a coaching plan, feel micromanaged and belittled because I know I've done amazing work, but I'm being treated like a problem employee. Many folks who have had this experience might be focused on turning their performance around, but I've accepted that this path has run its course. I'm burned out, ready for a change, and excited to leave the nine-to-five culture forever.
18:32 How can I strike the right balance of detachment to protect my energy, avoid feeding into the gas, lighting, and maintain positive relationships while I plan my exit strategy?
SWB 18:42 Oof. AC, I am so sorry this happened to you. There's a lot to unpack here. Uh, Jen, can we start with forced ranking? Are you familiar with this?
JD 18:51 You know, I think I've only heard of forced ranking in the context of like, law school where everybody is competing for a certain number of slots, or you get dropped at the end of your first year. Is this actually happening at work too?
SWB 19:04 Yeah. Yeah. So I looked into this after I read this question. Okay. A lot of companies used to use it, but many of them have abandoned forced ranking because it was so awful. It tends to be associated with, like, really cutthroat environments. So places like Goldman Sachs have used it. Um, Amazon used to use it. GE and Microsoft have used it in different ways. And I was actually reading that Google still uses it kind of, but they use it more for promotions, not so much as punishment for people who happen to fall at the bottom.
19:35 But the way it works is basically only a capped number of people can be considered high performers, like 10% or 20%. And then similarly, a specific number of people have to be labeled low performers. So like 10% of your people, no matter what, you will have to give them a low performance score. Which I read, and I was like, "Oof. Really? That doesn't seem fair."
JD 19:56 Wild. I mean, so it's just a pure numbers game even if you exceeded expectations, if other people over-exceeded those?
SWB 20:08 Mm-hmm.
JD 20:08 Oh, what a nightmare.
SWB 20:10 Yeah. Also, this really takes it as an assumption that performance reviews are so quantifiable that you can, like, math a performance review.
JD 20:20 Mm-hmm.
SWB 20:21 That it's somehow this precise instrument. And I'm sorry, LOL? Like, I don't buy that you could make performance reviews this precise and have that somehow be fair. I just don't buy it.
JD 20:34 I don't buy this either. I'm trying to think of the last round of performance reviews that I ran and how I would possibly pit people against each other in this way.
SWB 20:45 Right, right. Especially because reviews are so subjective. It's such a subjective process where so much of what you're looking at is extremely qualitative data, and now you have to quantify it. And not just quantify it, like, you know, "on a five-point scale, how did they do?" But the quantification turns into this really real and immediate impact on their employment. I just think that this is deeply problematic for a lot of reasons. And the thing you just said about competition seems important here, like pitting people against each other. And when I see that, I think, well, what is it costing you to do that?
21:22 Like, okay, sure. If you force rank people that might incentivize some people to work really, really hard to not be at the bottom, but if the success of your organization is fundamentally based in collaboration and trust, which I think in a design org, for example, which this person is in, it absolutely is. Well, then you need collaboration and trust.
21:43 How the fuck is that supposed to happen if you're just hanging out trying to make sure that this other person gets a worse review than you, cuz you gotta be on top of them?
JD 21:51 Yeah. It seems like the antithesis of coming up with collaborative solutions that actually are of value in the world instead of being people's individual vanity projects.
SWB 22:03 Okay. The other thing I noticed is that AC was surprised by something that sounds kind of like a performance improvement plan. They said they were on a "coaching plan" now. So I feel like that's kind of a performance improvement plan by another name. And so, Jen, I know that you have some experience with PIPs as they're so lovingly referred to, and I know a lot of people assume a PIP means the company is gonna manage you out.
22:25 And so I'm curious what your experience with PIPs is, and like, when can someone actually bounce back from one? And when is it just a CYA for the company and that person should actually get out?
JD 22:36 Yeah. You know, honestly, it can be really hard to tell. I will say, and not to toot my own horn, but I have never delivered a PIP that was not intended to truly help somebody to turn a thing around and be successful. You know, sometimes it comes up because somebody really does lack a bit of self-awareness about how they're interacting with other people, what the relationships look like. Some people may need some more kind of formal documentation to layout expectations and you know what that sort of growth looks like.
23:10 But I also know that that's not the case everywhere. And sometimes it really does become just a means of collecting paperwork so that you can either compel someone to leave or have all of the kind of ammunition you need to send them on their way. And so I think, you know, a few things that come to mind in determining where you fall in that spectrum, if you are the one on the receiving end, is how much of that performance plan is actually an engagement between you and your manager? You know, are you getting support in meeting those goals? Are you getting encouragement and feedback? Is there actually some infrastructure in place to make sure that you can accomplish the things in that list?
23:56 If you're getting kind of two weeks to turn your entire work style or performance around, that's when it starts to feel a little like maybe there are some dotting of I's and crossing of T's that are a lot less about your growth and success and a lot more about getting you out of the company.
SWB 24:16 Hmm. Yeah. You know, the other thing I've heard from people who've been in this situation and then decided to leave is that it's often because the PIP was really vague. And so if you get a PIP where it's not easy to tell whether you have achieved it or not, if it feels like the company might be setting you up to be able to say that you didn't achieve the goals in the PIP because it's so open to interpretation, I think that can be a flag.
24:43 Like, if the PIP says that in the next 90 days you need to demonstrate X, Y, and Z, but X, Y, and Z are very open to interpretation, and it's something where they could easily argue that you didn't do it even if you think you did, that could be a sign that the company is trying to keep a door open for themselves to let you go at the end of that period, no matter what.
JD 25:07 Yeah, and that's such a good question in this scenario when if somebody is performing above expectations and also on a performance review, like, what else are you supposed to do other than be superhuman? What should AC do next with this?
SWB 25:25 Well, I think that they already have their answer. They're like, "Yeah, I'm not gonna do this." They said, "How do I detach and protect my energy without burning all my relationships?" Which I think is a great question because what they're saying is, "I'm not gonna try to fix this thing that is not an actual problem. I'm not invested in fixing anything here. I'm invested in leaving and figuring out how I'm gonna leave."
25:47 And so for that, I think it's wonderful to decide to detach and protect your energy when you know you're out the door. So to do that in a way that you feel good about later, one of the things I would say to AC is that it's a great time to ground themselves in their values and their strengths because those are the things that are gonna be important to you no matter what.
26:06 So if I was working with AC, I might ask questions like, "Well, what really matters to you? Who do you want to be in this world? What are the qualities that you bring to your work that are personally meaningful to you?" If you think about what those things are, those are the things that are gonna matter to you regardless of the job that you're in, because you're not doing it for the job, you're doing it for you.
26:30 For example, you may still really wanna invest in treating your peers respectfully, being a great collaborator, being generative and open with the people around you because that's just the kind of person you want to be, and not being that kind of person will actually hurt you because it's like not in integrity with yourself. That is really important to listen to, but everything else, detach from it.
26:53 Do the things that really feed your intrinsic sense of what's right. Do the things that are for your own sense of values, but the things that are for your company or that are, like, just to make other people happy those are places where you can really let go and say, "I'm not gonna care about that. And if people are disappointed in me, they're upset that I'm letting things slide, I'm not going to let that get to me because I've made a proactive choice to let those things go."
JD 27:19 So Sara, it sounds like this shitty situation is kind of opening a window for something new for AC. So as they're thinking about what's next, what do you suggest they keep top of mind?
SWB 27:33 Yeah, I picked up on that too. So when they say they wanna leave nine-to-five culture forever, that sounds really important. I think if I were working with AC, I would ask them to think about not just what they're leaving behind, but what is the direction they're moving toward? Where are they orienting themselves?
27:51 And they don't necessarily have to know that right now a hundred percent. They don't have to have it all figured out. You don't need to have a five-year plan, or a business model, or whatever, but really think about what is the direction that you wanna point yourself in, and then what are the skills that you might need when you get there?
28:09 What are the skills you need to grow? What are the things you wanna be really good at as you move on to whatever's after this nine-to-five? Because that can help you identify particular things you might want to focus on or learn here and now while you're still in this current job because you're like, "Oh, I really wanna grow my skills in, I don't know, understanding the business side of things, because that's gonna help me when I start my own business." Okay. That'll help you decide, "Well, maybe I'm not gonna tap out of those conversations yet because I have a reason to be there that goes beyond this current job. I have something to learn or gain from it personally."
JD 28:43 Ooh, that's so smart.
SWB 28:44 But everything else, nope right out.
JD 28:47 Adios!
SWB 28:48 And the last thing I would say is that it sounds like relationships really matter to AC. And so I would encourage them to think about which relationships matter to them. Who are the people that they care about because they feel personally connected to them? Who are the people that they want to have in their network? And who are the people where, you know, they're okay with letting go, where they don't necessarily have something special or important there?
29:12 Because if you start saying no to things and you get less invested, you may find that there are people who judge that. You may find that people have perceptions of you. And in the past you might have cared about those perceptions. And now what you're doing is you're choosing to say, "I am letting go of other people's perceptions, or at least I'm letting go of some other people's perceptions because those people are not meaningful to my future."
29:33 So then you can continue caring about the perceptions of people you really value and not everyone else who is still invested in the company when you're not invested in that company.
JD 29:46 Especially those people who are just looking at math to try to evaluate whether you're doing a good job or not.
SWB 29:52 Stack ranking employees is terrible.
JD 29:55 Ugh.
SWB 29:55 That's where I definitely have a strong opinion. Don't do that.
JD 29:58 Take that out of your management toolkit, please. Thank you.
30:05 Ah, so Sara, are you ready for our next dilemma?
SWB 30:09 Oh, I so am.
JD 30:10 Okay. Well, this one comes from Paul who teaches in a professional program at a public university. Let's play it now.
VO 3 "Paul" 30:21 Last year, my supervisor wrote an excoriating review of me. The review spilled over from sober journalism into a hit piece. It was filled with factual inaccuracies, typos, opinion unsupported by evidence, and accusations that had never been previously raised. The trouble is, this is not a debate form. If it's written, the administrators take it as fact. While the term "ultimatum" wasn't used, nor was there a mention of any PIP, the message was clear: shut up and get out. I've already been looking to leave and move back into the industry, but I don't have anything lined up yet.
31:01 As much as I want out, I don't want to be fired. My reputation is important to me. It's all I have. But since my supervisor is the one with the pen, I feel completely crushed. She's retiring this year, but I worry she'll leave some very caustic notes on her way out, which is what the previous supervisor did.
31:21 How do I preserve my own reputation if the person writing reviews has me in her crosshairs? I don't have time for a five year charm offensive with other higher ups in the org.
SWB 31:32 Whew. This is rough.
JD 31:34 Yeah.
SWB 31:34 This hits on a lot of what we've already talked about like being surprised by feedback, feeling like you can't correct the record, feeling like somebody else is in control of what's being said about you regardless of how you actually did. I really feel for Paul here.
JD 31:49 Yeah. And it's terrifying to think of having such little control over how people are perceiving you, especially when it's so different than how Paul is viewing himself in his own work.
SWB 32:01 Mmm. Yeah. And you can really see that coming through in the way that Paul has written to us. You can just feel how scared they are. They're talking about feeling crushed. They're saying, you know, "all I have is my reputation and now it's being taken away." And I can see that this has like really escalated stress and a lot of big feelings for Paul. And so that's something I would definitely get into as we talk about this.
JD 32:25 Yeah. So, Paul's dilemma was "how do I preserve my own reputation if the person writing reviews has me in their crosshairs?" So Sara, what do you think?
SWB 32:37 Yeah, I think the thing I would suggest starting with is really looking at this concept of reputation. You know, I keep coming back to what Paul said about their reputation being all they had. I completely hear that feeling, but that feels like such an extreme thought. And that makes sense. It's really painful to have somebody tarnish your name or to feel like people are writing untrue things about you that you can't correct or control. But what I notice here is that Paul really seems to be getting into some all-or-nothing thinking. It's very binary, which is that his reputation is the only asset that he has. It's everything.
33:15 And when you look at it like that, well yeah, you're gonna feel powerless and stuck because if the only thing you have is reputation, you don't control that thing, you don't control anything. And so I think a very important place to start looking at is to say, how can we reframe this and get away from this all-or-nothing thinking that is happening?
JD 33:35 Yeah, that all-or-nothing thinking is such a classic example of a cognitive distortion. And you know, for the folks listening, if you're not familiar with that phrase, cognitive distortions are essentially these automatic, unconscious thought patterns that have like a real harmful sway over how we view a situation.
33:59 So that all-or-nothing, or black-and-white thinking is a great example of that. I know one of my personal favorites is catastrophizing, where I assume the worst case scenario is always gonna happen. We'll put some resources in our show notes if you wanna dive in a little more and see if any of these thought processes are popping into your own reactions to things.
SWB 34:22 Oh, they pop into mine all the time.
JD 34:24 Fully constantly. So Sara, back to Paul. So he's feeling like his reputation is at risk and it's all he has. How can he go about this process of reframing how he's viewing things?
SWB 34:37 So yeah, I think once you start recognizing that that's a distorted thought, it's an extreme thought, you can start pulling back from that and saying like, "well, hold on. This isn't everything. My reputation isn't all I have. How do I look at this differently?" And so reframing is something we talk about all the time in coaching. It's really helpful. It's just a process of helping your brain get unstuck when it gets glommed onto one of these cognitive distortions. What you're doing is really just trying on different ways of seeing things until you find one that unlocks something that lets you move forward in some way.
35:11 So one of the questions I would ask to help reframe some of this with Paul is to say, "Okay, Paul. What do you have beyond your reputation?" And I suspect there are actually a lot of things. Paul has his strengths and his expertise. He has all the knowledge he got from this job. He has all the knowledge he had when he started this job, all the skills and experiences that have led him here. And so Paul still has all of those things, and nobody can take those away from him. And those are all very real.
35:38 The other thing I would think about is what connections does Paul have? What does his network look like? What is his network within the university? And also really importantly, what is his network outside of the university? It feels really loud when somebody important in your workplace is saying things about you that do not ring true to you and that feels so patently false. And at the same time, this is one person who might be very important in your workplace, but to most of the world is a total rando who doesn't really mean anything.
36:10 And so I think it can also be really helpful to recognize that yes, this person has an impact on Paul's reputation, but Paul's reputation is so much bigger than that one person. And so maybe it's also useful to say, "Okay, what do I mean by reputation? What's a more complete picture of where my reputation comes from?"
JD 36:27 You know, I wonder too, as Paul's looking at their view of their own reputation, you know, how much of that is from the perspective of this one person, as you pointed out, Sara, who to the rest of us is an absolute rando? What would it be like to look at that from the perspective of a colleague that you know really trusts and respects you, or your best friend, or somebody else who's really in your corner and sees the value you bring?
SWB 36:57 Or your students, right? Your students are part of your reputation too, and I know it doesn't always feel like they have the same kind of power, but what do they think of you? Do they think you're doing a good job? Look at that too, because it can really help you put things into perspective. The other thing to think about here is that Paul mentioned they were interested in getting an industry job, which means leaving the university.
37:20 And one of the things I do know about working at a company is that companies often don't care very much about academia. For better or worse, sometimes better, sometimes worse.
JD 37:29 Womp, womp.
SWB 37:29 And so they may not pay any attention at all to any of this experience. I think that that means that your reputation within the university may actually not be that relevant or important to people outside of it. They may not care that much or think that much about it at all. And so I think it might be something that, again, it feels really loud in your head and feels really loud while you're in that space, but out in the wider world, it can recede to the back.
37:57 And so I would also think about who are the people outside of academia that maybe Paul wants to reconnect with or build up their network with? Because those people, they might be a lot more important to Paul in the future than the people who are around him in the day-to-day right now.
JD 38:12 Yeah. And Sara, I imagine there might be some allies that Paul has within the university itself, so maybe he could do a little connecting with those people as well to remind him that this one opinion isn't everyone's.
SWB 38:27 Yeah, and you know, the other thing I think is that it's just heavy to carry this around by yourself. So feeling like you can talk to people at the university who you trust, who get you, that can be really powerful. The other thing is maybe thinking about other people at the university who are in more powerful positions than you who might be willing to go to bat for you, stand up for you, champion your work, because that can also be really helpful if you can identify those people.
38:54 And it might be a little bit vulnerable-feeling to open up to them about what's going on. But ultimately I think that can also be in your best interests, both in terms of the practical parts of your reputation at the university, but also in terms of just, like, processing this experience and not feeling quite so weighed down by it.
JD 39:11 That is a wonderful way to kind of approach this situation. And Sara, I'd be curious, is there any other parting wisdom you wanna give to Paul?
SWB 39:20 Yeah, I think the last thing I would say is we never control other people's perceptions or actions. We just don't. And sometimes that's a bummer. It would be nice sometimes if we could, but the more that we focus all our energy on somebody else's perception or somebody else's behavior, the more defeating it feels.
39:39 And so I would always recommend turning around and looking at your own values and looking at who you want to be in this moment, because that's something that you do have power over. So whatever somebody writes, whatever somebody says, you may not be able to control it, but that is always where you do have control. So even though you're upset about this, even though this is really hard, ask yourself, "what behaviors will I look back on with pride? What are the ways that I wanna show up to this stressful moment that I'm gonna be proud of later on?" That can be a really healthy place to put energy that's otherwise going toward fretting and fretting and fretting.
40:15 And you know, when you do that, it feels like you're doing something, but you're actually not doing anything. It's just very, very, very draining. And so I would redirect a lot of that anxious energy toward whatever things that I can control.
JD 40:28 Ugh, I can't wait, Paul, to hear what comes next for you and where you land. Keep us posted.
40:38 All right, Sara, do you have one final dilemma in you today?
SWB 40:42 I think I do.
JD 40:44 Well, we need to talk about this one. Again, this person submitted anonymously, so we're gonna call them Taylor.
VO 4 "Taylor" 40:52 At my last staff job, I developed an invisible illness. I found the only way I could keep doing my job was to request reasonable accommodations, adjustments to how I worked. This went fine until my group took on more projects. The demands on me became impossible, even for a healthy person. I worked with my boss to prioritize, but another supervisor who wanted me to do projects for her too was upset that I worked from home. So, then I got blindsided in a performance review, which was full of untrue accusations, such as I was abusing my accommodations.
41:28 My boss threatened me with a performance development plan, even though I didn't meet the criteria. After getting her to make edits for the record, I quit. I've taken some time off to heal, and I'm looking for a staff job again. I'm switching to a career that requires empathy and an employer may actually value my experiences with invisible illness. On the other hand, if I get a remote job, I may be able to get by without accommodations. I don't know whether it would benefit me to disclose my disability or not.
41:57 Should I disclose my disability?
SWB 42:00 Okay. Yikes. This sounds really destabilizing and also possibly illegal.
JD 42:04 Yeah. Oh, Taylor, I am so sorry that on top of having these impossible demands put on you, you're also getting this feedback that feels like gaslighting from what I'm hearing.
SWB 42:20 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I see that gaslight going off. You know, I wanna put on the record that neither Jen nor I is an expert on disability law, and what employers are required to do, and exactly how this might shake out from a legal perspective. But that said, this certainly sounds like a really unfair situation, and the idea of being accused of abusing accommodations is, to me deeply, deeply ableist.
42:42 And it assumes that you know, this other party knows better than you do about what you need to have your disability accommodated. And I will never know better than you what your needs are. My official opinion on this is, like, this is really fucked up.
JD 42:58 Yeah. All right. So Sara, with all of those caveats and that initial background, should Taylor disclose their disability?
SWB 43:07 And this is why we don't do advice. Yeah. I, um, I cannot and should not tell Taylor what to do here, but I think what we really can do is help them break this down so they can make a decision they're gonna feel good about. So to start, Taylor deserves better than just getting by, right? Like in a perfect world, they would be able to talk about their needs, talk about their disability openly and without consequence, and that would be fine. We don't live in that world though, so I think what they need to be able to do is to figure out what the risks are in a particular moment or a particular environment, and that's gonna be imperfect.
43:42 It's never a hundred percent clear what the risks are when you're disclosing personal information. But I think there are a few things that they can do that will help them make a risk assessment that then makes it easier for them to make a decision like this.
JD 43:56 Ooh, what's that look like?
SWB 43:57 So the first place that I would start is to look at what are the potential risks of disclosure? And I bet Taylor has already done this. Uh, they probably have a list in their head that has been, you know, like, building since the beginning of time. Their brain may already be on kind of hyperdrive thinking about all the potential things that could go wrong if they admitted that they have this disability or that they might need an accommodation.
44:18 But if by some reason Taylor does not already have that list going, a few things I would think of off the bat are things like, okay, is there a concern that you'll be perceived as a less-desirable candidate because somebody who is interviewing them has a bias? So they might get knocked outta the running, and that might be a reason that you don't wanna disclose.
44:38 It also might be, like, if you go into a role where people know about your disability, maybe you're afraid that they might be watching you more closely, they might be assuming that you're underperforming. They might be, you know, surveilling you. They might be suspicious of your accommodation requests. And to be clear, none of those things are fair. None of those things should happen, but they're real things that do happen. And so it's absolutely something to take into account when you're looking at the risks of disclosure. But here's the thing: we often spend so much time thinking about the risks of doing something, of saying something, we spend a lot less time thinking about the risks of not doing it.
45:13 So in this example, I would be like, "Okay, what are the risks of not disclosing?" And so if I were working with Taylor, I would suggest we spend some time really looking at that. If Taylor doesn't disclose what would happen? What are the potential risks? And I think a big risk is they might end up in a job that doesn't respect them. They could wind up in a job that has serious problems around inclusion and accessibility that's really biased against disabled folks. And they might not realize that that's happening until too late, until they're in the job, and that could create a really unsafe place to work for them.
45:49 So the risks of not disclosing might actually also feel really big, particularly if you kind of look at them side-by-side: the risk of disclosing versus not disclosing. And again, your brain will often focus on just one side of this equation. So sitting down and making yourself really think about the other side can just help you get a better sense of your trade-offs. And then once you've done that, once you have the risks of disclosing, the risks of not disclosing, now you can do one other thing, which is figure out which risks you can best afford to take right now.
46:19 And that's pretty personal. For example, if Taylor were in a truly financially vulnerable situation, they might decide that they cannot risk being perceived as less capable in a job interview because they really need a job because it's essential to financial stability. And if that's the case, they might say, "okay, well maybe the risk of ending up in a workplace that isn't accommodating or equitable is a risk I'd rather take right now than the risk of being knocked out of the running in a job interview process."
JD 46:48 So that need for security being a little more important at the moment than some of the other core needs this person may have.
SWB 46:56 Yeah, right, right. But on the other hand, let's say that Taylor is in a pretty comfortable financial position. Maybe they have reserves of money on hand. Maybe they have a partner whose income can really cover everything. Whatever it is, they might have a lot of ability to wait it out. And that would be a great reason to say, "You know what? I'm gonna ask some tough questions during this interview process. I'm gonna be direct by my needs because I'm looking for an employer who respects those needs and who makes it safe to disclose this information too. And so if in the interview process they don't accept that, then I don't wanna work there."
47:30 And I think that would also be a perfectly reasonable decision to make. But that's gonna, again, really depend on Taylor's situation. Taylor's finances are probably a really big piece of this because it's going to help them figure out things like how long can they afford to wait for the right thing. A few other factors that might go into this are things like, what is your external situation? So like, how many jobs are available right now in the field that you're applying to?
47:55 As you start putting feelers out there, as you start sending out your resume, or connecting on LinkedIn, or putting in applications, what kind of interest are you getting back? Do you have a recruiter to help you? Just kind of knowing the landscape out there can really help you figure out which risks you can take right now and which risks might be, you know, too big or too much of a gamble for you in this particular moment.
JD 48:19 So, Sara, you mentioned that one option would be to really be upfront and direct about what, during an interview process, you might want to know about this other company to figure out if they're a good fit or not. How would someone kind of go about getting some of that information when everyone's trying to put their shiniest foot forward?
SWB 48:43 Yeah. You know, something I really love to do is help people figure out what questions to ask in an interview that will get a company to disclose information they might not otherwise say. So like basically what are the things you can ask that will get a company to tell you about their red flags? So, for example, if you asked a question like, "how do you support people with disabilities?" That's a riskier question to ask because A, you're probably not gonna get a very honest answer. You're probably gonna get a more like PR answer. And B, mmm, there's a very good chance that people will infer from your question that you have a disability. And so if you're trying to protect that information, you may feel like you're inadvertently making a disclosure.
49:30 And so what I would suggest is asking some other kinds of questions to help remove the veil without revealing so much about yourself. And so I really recommend questions that get people to talk more openly about what the actual environment is like day-to-day. Questions might be things like, "what does a typical schedule look like for you personally?" How are people handling the remote and hybrid scheduling right now?" "What are some different ways that people have figured that out for themselves?" "What kind of flexibility are you seeing as being common in your company right now?"
50:03 And then another one to ask interviewers is like, "how do you personally balance your work and life tensions?" "How do you handle flexibility in your life?" "What works for you?"
JD 50:13 Mmm. I like that idea of turning that around to suss out how that person is doing this in their own life.
SWB 50:21 Yeah. There is this article I always share with people that we'll put in the show notes that is a whole list of questions you can ask to kind of figure out the culture of an organization. And one of the ones that they recommend is "show me your calendar for the week."
JD 50:36 Oh, brutal.
SWB 50:38 Yes, exactly. But even knowing it would be brutal to have to share your calendar, that's saying something, right?
JD 50:45 Yeah.
SWB 50:46 Like, that's gonna tell me something about what it might be like to be there and how I might be spending my time. How much time do I have to think? Or is it all meetings, meetings, meetings? And if it is meetings, meetings, meetings, is it okay to be off camera some of the time? What are the norms around that? What are the expectations there?
51:05 And you know, I don't know the specific nature of Taylor's disability. I don't know exactly what their accommodation needs are, but I think as soon as you tune into some of the specific questions that can help you understand the landscape of when and how and where people work, what's considered typical, that is all really useful for feeling things out.
51:24 The other thing I would ask about is who thrives in this organization? Which people are high performers in this organization, and what do they have in common? Are there teams that are doing really well, and what kinds of rituals and habits exist on those teams? When you start to ask people questions about what makes people thrive in the organization or who tends to thrive, that could give you an answer that gives you a lot of warm fuzzies. Or you can get an answer that's like "people who are top performers, they put 150% in. They're a pedal to the metal all the time. They do whatever it takes."
51:56 And like, I'm sorry. I don't wanna work at a company where people will do whatever it takes.
JD 52:01 Yeah. Oof. No thanks.
SWB 52:04 Like, there are several things I could do that I will not do for your business. Thank you.
JD 52:09 Yeah. And one of them is sacrifice my sleep.
SWB 52:12 Right? Exactly. Right. Like, I don't wanna go work at hardcore Twitter. Like, I'm not gonna sleep in a sleeping bag in the office. That's a hard pass for me.
JD 52:20 I learned something new about you, Sara.
SWB 52:23 You thought I was ready to sign up?
JD 52:24 Oh yes.
SWB 52:25 Oh boy. But you know, I think it's really important to think about what is this company optimizing for in their culture? And if you ask them about their culture directly, they're most likely going to give you, again, that kind of pat PR answer: "well, we believe everybody should be able to bring their whole self to work." And that's a lie. And it's just not useful. It's not gonna yield anything that you need.
52:50 But when you ask who are the people who thrive at this company and what do they tend to have in common? They're gonna tell you some stuff and it's gonna be revealing in a way that's actually useful to you. So flex those question-asking muscles, that's what I would suggest, because it allows you to ask things that are revealing, so you can get the information you need while still protecting the things that you wanna protect.
JD 53:13 Sara, I feel like we started talking about this dilemma and my heart just felt so heavy for Taylor, but now I'm so excited to hear how they end up Nancy Drew-ing on their next job opportunity so they can be somewhere that's actually supporting their needs and what they need to have for success.
SWB 53:36"Nancy Drew-ing it." I love that. It's like Colombo-ing it. " Just one more question." And like I do wanna say that Taylor should not have to work this hard to get accommodations. They shouldn't have to frame every question perfectly to make sure they don't reveal anything. Like, they should be able to have upfront and open conversations about this stuff. But I think this is just a process of accepting that we live in a world where that may or may not be safe. And then figuring out what you can do to still get your needs met despite the world not being as inclusive as I think any of us want it. Woo, Jen. These were some pretty big dilemmas. Heavy stuff, really good stuff, but heavy. How you doing?
JD 54:18 Would you like that in words or emoji?
SWB 54:23 Oh my gosh. Okay. Well, on that note, it is time to wrap up and I will say I cannot wait for episode two because in episode two I'm gonna ask you a bunch of questions and have to get all of your brain involved in answering.
JD 54:36 Ooh, I can't wait to hear what the topic is.
SWB 54:38 I'll be turning the tables on you.
SWB 54:48 Well, that's it for our very first episode. Per My Last Email is a production of Active Voice. Check us out at https://www.activevoicehq.com/. And you can also get the show notes for today, plus a full transcript at https://pmleshow.com/. This episode was produced by Emily Duncan. Our theme music is (I'm a) Modern Woman by Maria T. Buy her album at https://thisismariat.bandcamp.com/.
55:11 Thank you to everyone who submitted their story for today's show, and thank you for listening. If you've got a work dilemma eating away at you, send it to us. Head to https://pmleshow.com/ to submit your story. See you next time.